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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What are your own thoughts on this?



Well, I'm not convinced that the true hindrance to the word of His grace is [i]just[/i] the pastors (one church pastor system). I think the greatest hindrance is the liturgy of going through a program from one step to the next with no real time of waiting on the Lord with an expectation that He will speak to the people. It is an unspoken rule that things are going to happen a certain way.

So if we were without pastors I don't think the problem would be fixed. I think education has to come first. We need to be educated as to what genuine church life is. Once we get going in that regard I can see how the one church pastor system will in time fade away. There is a severe shortage of pastors in our times and in 10 years the problem will be much worse. So I see things headed towards an 'elders' base local church out of necessity. I think pastor/teachers are in such short supply that they may also be necessity become itinerate




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/12 13:53Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:


"Well, I'm not convinced that the true hindrance to the word of His grace is [i]just[/i] the pastors (one church pastor system).

So if we were without pastors I don't think the problem would be fixed. I think education has to come first. We need to be educated as to what genuine church life is."


Once again we come to the problem of what comes into the mind when the word pastor is heard.

The word "pastor" has been hijacked in our day (like many other words in the English language) to mean something entirely alien to it original definition.

Pastor now means (as has been mentioned ealier on this thread) "man in charge," or CEO, or something like that. There's the "senior pastor," then various pastors of a lesser sort... music pastor, visitation pastor, pastor of community... I even heard "pastor of administration" being used. Then under them the elders, then under them the deacons...

And the underlying thought in it all is a hierarchy kind of thing.

So we are not advocating church "without pastors" (and neither are you, I know). It's what "pastor" has come to mean that is the hindrance, and must go.

Further to that, you are certainly right, that a routine is in place, and this as well hinders the liberty of the Spirit. There is a long established mindset as to what a "church service" is, and most church goers can tell you before hand the shape things are going to take in "the service" on Sunday.

You say education has to come first. "We need to be educated as to what genuine church life is."

I think you are right. But then, as whenever in history the sheep of God's pasture were let in on what was rightly their own heritage in Jesus Christ, expect to see a revolution.

...Just one more thought. I think it's important to make clear that-- and I can't speak for others, but I can certainly make my own feelings clear, and have been wanting to-- I know many godly pastors who love the Lord Jesus with all their heart. They are serving him to the best of their ability in a system that is all they know. It's all they know!

And so to say "we need to be educated as to what true church life is," this means all of us. The pastors too. The pastors included. They too, need to be educated as to what true church is. But the schools train them up this other way, perpetuting the system. (But that's another topic.)

So, in all this talk about pastors, perish the thought that anybody (I speak for myself at least) is maligning pastors in a blanket kind of way. Isn't this thread (at least one intention of it) just an effort to discover what the original definition was, and seek the courage and grace to return to that? May God grant true pastors (there are many of them) the grace and the courage to seek Him earnestly as to what He really wants them to be doing.

AD






_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/1/12 15:09Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
May God grant true pastors (there are many of them) the grace and the courage to seek Him earnestly as to what He really wants them to be doing.



Amen. How, other than prayer can we get this process going? Having recently been in the UK and a renewed zeal to see the word of the Lord manifest in our gatherings, I'm concerned that with time the pressing sense of seeing things change may diminish. I felt like God spoke to us in Greenock and I need to realize how that is to play out in my own experience. I have the matter on my heart and before the Lord, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety also. I just think things need to get going. :-?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/12 15:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
May God grant true pastors (there are many of them) the grace and the courage to seek Him earnestly as to what He really wants them to be doing.



Amen. How, other than prayer can we get this process going? Having recently been in the UK and a renewed zeal to see the word of the Lord manifest in our gatherings, I'm concerned that with time the pressing sense of seeing things change may diminish. I felt like God spoke to us in Greenock and I need to realize how that is to play out in my own experience. I have the matter on my heart and before the Lord, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety also. I just think things need to get going. :-?



I've been listening in on this thread and feel greatly encouraged. I believe the Lord has given you all a word and I pray he continues to use you. I think it would be a great start to have a network of sister churches and begin having accountability to one another, no matter if it's a housechurch or an institutional church with the same vision and burden. There are so many believers on this forum with the same burden but live in different parts of the world, nonetheless we are all a part of the body of Christ. You can always start small and build from there.




 2009/1/12 17:04









 Re:


Also if you decide to start some churches can you start one in St. Petersburg, Florida? :-) I know brother Denny Kenaston, has something set up on his websight where you can call to find a local church. I was thinking about giving him a call.

 2009/1/12 17:16









 Re: Those elusive nicolaitans....

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:
Quote:

If you remove all historical references or speculation, and view the word , as spoken by the Lord Jesus in Heaven, through John....you have "Lords over my people", or "Kings over my people"...."rulers over my people."

philologos wrote:
"No, you don't. What you have is Nicolaitans. It is only a human speculation that the word is made up of nikE and laos. No more than if you found the word 'Bailey' and decided it meant a bay tree sheltered by the wind... bay and lee?






It is a Greek word that is what it's participles mean . It is NOT a mystical uninterpretable term. It is clear, and simple...and was not meant to muddy the prophesy with something uninterpretable, like a proper name [bailey..?] that could be imagined to mean most anything.



Jesus makes as it very clear, as does John, with Diotrephes, as with Paul in Acts 20....""not sparing the flock. drawing disciples after themselves." Those who desired the preeminence. This, along with the spirit of the Pharisee's fits...right along with the professional CLERGY CLASS of today. Nicolaitan. ...an elite ministry class.



There are very few that do not , believe that this is a "bureaucratic" word translated so. [see wikipedia...nicolaitan ] or...any greek lexicon and or thesaurus. Conquerors of my people...or "people". It is with us today in full force.

 2009/1/12 17:54









 Re: robertW...formulas and Pastors...

I agree with you Robert. We cannot devise a formula by having our ducks in a row. God is sovereign anyway.


I think the issue we must tackle is the one of the quenching of the Spirit, that drives away His presence. "Where the spirit of the Lord is; there is LIBERTY." God has used many, many singular men and women to shake the world for Jesus. Ambition, and the religious spirit, are an ugly thing, that are very common in our meetings today where we have a spectator class, and a ministry class. There may be good things said, but everything is planned from start to finish in such a way that leaves people feeling dry and alone.,,,, because they are.


There is such a thing as Spirit lead meetings, and they usually are derived from Spirit lead communities....people who know and love one another, who love Jesus more, and are directed to the least of the brothers. This cannot function with a Priest Class that dominates.


I believe that more than educating people on what a functioning Spirit lead meeting IS, I think we need to educate people to DO the gospel. This involves repentance toward loving God with all, and learning to love others likewise. This will develop into deeds, that will flow naturally. I do not think we can create it, and we must realize that as no two babies are alike, churches are different too.




Our biggest problem is that we do not KNOW each other, much less LOVE or CARE about one another, as is evident in most of our local churches today.




We must attain to this, or we are just fooling ourselves that we walk with God. Our meetings will flow with God, when we have unhindered, loving fellowship without ambition, selfish pride, and greed. We must also learn to DISCERN the Body. That means to equally honor the weak, and love them too, as we would any, or any of our family.



This will result in common union, or as we say...COMMUNION. One body, Lord, and one Savior. when we are clean, and unhindered, and no longer quench His intentions or mercies, He will honor us with His Presence. Until then, we will be satisfied with a form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof.



The community , the every day life of the Church, precedes the meeting. We have it backwards.











 2009/1/12 18:25
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: AD post

AD quote:...'Just one more thought. I think it's important to make clear that-- and I can't speak for others, but I can certainly make my own feelings clear, and have been wanting to-- I know many godly pastors who love the Lord Jesus with all their heart. They are serving him to the best of their ability in a system that is all they know. It's all they know!'

Quote: 'So, in all this talk about pastors, perish the thought that anybody (I speak for myself at least) is maligning pastors in a blanket kind of way. Isn't this thread (at least one intention of it) just an effort to discover what the original definition was, and seek the courage and grace to return to that? May God grant true pastors (there are many of them) the grace and the courage to seek Him earnestly as to what He really wants them to be doing.'



AD I thank you for these comments they really are spiritually balanced wisdom. 8-)
I am absolutely convinced of the church structure where plurality of Elders who shepherd the local flock as servants is the biblical model and NOT the Pastor/leader hierarchy set up. However we need to recognise the points made above by AD otherwise we are in danger if dishonouring those in the past that we owe so much to. I am thinking of men like Tozer, Spurgeon, Lloyd Jones, etc. Also men of today such as David Wilkerson.

As there seems to be a general agreement of the biblical structure for churches is it possible to consider what the question was at the start of this thread?

If we agree that each local church is autonomous and cared for by the local Elders, do Christians have any influence outside of their local church? I believe that they do (in fact you could say this forum proves the point). Not authority, but influence and responsibility. If there is connection to other churches and other Christians throughout the world, surely we can have an input into other's lives.

I myself get great encouragement and correction from various teaching and preaching ministries outside of my local church. I think I am not alone in this! This site is a clear example of this. Many of these misitries are itinerant, but not all and many are speaking a 'NOW' word that is applicable to many (if not all) Christians across the world.

That said I think that we have to beware of people setting themselves up as self proclaimed 'prophets' to the church thinking they should sort it out. But we do need (in my opinion) voices who 'contend for the faith' and preach sound doctrine and direction to those who will hear.


_________________
Dave

 2009/1/13 4:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:
Our meetings will flow with God, when we have unhindered, loving fellowship without ambition, selfish pride, and greed. We must also learn to DISCERN the Body. That means to equally honor the weak, and love them too, as we would any, or any of our family.







Amen!

 2009/1/13 6:20









 Re:



I got this off of David Wilkerson's article [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=19038&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Dangers of the Gospel of Accomodation.[/url] This is what he believes is God's method of establishing churches:



".....God's Method

Certain men of God met at Antioch to send out men to preach the gospel and establish churches (Acts 13). Here is God's method:

1. They ministered to the Lord and fasted. This was their planning session—worshiping, fasting, waiting on the Lord, and calling for direction from the Holy Ghost. They did not move until the Holy Ghost spoke. There were no formulas, no surveys, no door-to-door asking people what they wanted and then serving it to them.

2. They prayed—no strategizing, no network, and not one step until the Holy Ghost spoke His mind. Then and only then did they lay hands upon them, anoint them, and send them out in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.

Paul lived his whole religious life on religious formulas, and he said they didn't work. He gave up on formulas and said, "I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2). Paul boasted unashamedly, "We preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:23). He was saying, "Gentlemen (he was talking to his peers), they want us to accommodate. The Jews are looking for signs in our gospel. The Greeks want the wisdom. They want to know how to cope, but I'm not compromising. There's only one message. Our gospel has been and will be the Cross and its demands as well as its victories. As for me, I'm determined to preach nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified....."

 2009/1/13 7:16





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