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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Don't you think that the policy of divivde and conquer by the enemy has been very succesful? We are in a war. It is time for good people of Christ to come together.



I think our greatest danger is to lose the candlestick. The gates of hell will not prevail against a church in which the Lord is tending that candlestick.

So a carefulness to come together with a readiness to hear and obey what God is saying is essential. Again, this is not crafty sermons- it is a conscious sense that God is speaking to the people.

Once the candlestick is gone there is nothing left but death. The voice of God is no longer present because the candlestick on which the oil is consumed is gone. No light means - no revelation.

I think it would be fair to say that some may need to seek the Lord to see if perchance they might need to meet together as a local church and allow Christ to move among them and reestablish a local church that is a true light in the community.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/22 21:59Profile









 Re:

Hi Robert

I think that one could make a pretty good argument that one could lose the candlestick because of a lack of "one accord."

Act 1:14 these all were continuing with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Act 2:1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Pentecost, they were all with one accord in one place.

Act 2:46 And continuing with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they shared food with gladness and simplicity of heart,

Act 4:24 And having heard, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord and said, Lord, You are the God who made the heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that is in them;

Act 5:12 And many miracles and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.

Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed to those things which Philip spoke, hearing and seeing the many miracles which he did.

Act 15:25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Php 2:2 then fulfill my joy, that you may be like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord and of one mind.

 2008/12/22 22:20
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What about someone like the Apostle Paul? He seemed to have some kind of input, or perhaps authority in some way, over many different churches which he had started.

(Please, I'm not saying I disagree with you. I just like to ask questions to "test" ideas.)


I WANT you to ask questions to test my ideas! :-)

You are right Paul has an authority in, notice I have switched your word from 'over', in the churches that God had raised up through his ministry, but they were individual local assemblies not something called 'the church'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/23 2:02Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So, If Paul was writing to the church at Greenock, who would he write to?


He would have written to the messengers of the churches in Greenock. You are trying to understand the scriptures in the light of current circumstances. I am saying that we will never understand current circumstances until we understand the scriptures in their original context.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/23 2:06Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Antioch, in that day, had a population of 500,000 and 70,000 Jews. Yet, from Acts 14:27 we see that "the church," was gathered so that they could be informed. Not a multitude of "local churches," within Antioch, but "the church."


This is speculation. We have no idea how large the church in Antioch was but from Acts 13 we can see it gathered together with teachers and prophets in the midst of it.

Take a look at the word 'churches' in the New Testament. You will find several instances where our current usage would be to say 'the church' and in each one you will find the reference is to 'the churches'. This ought to tell us our current conceptions have strayed from the original.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/23 2:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think that one could make a pretty good argument that one could lose the candlestick because of a lack of "one accord."


You could make a 'pretty good argument' for many things but there is no biblical evidence for this. The one lampstand which was threatened with removal was so threatened because it had abandond its first love.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/23 2:12Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
"Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth" Prob 17:24



As a young opinionated man becoming a father, it was a humbling and settling transformation when I realized that for someone who thought he could size up christendom, I was hardly prepared to raise three children. I find that there are many men who are ready to be promoted to high rank in the church who have neglected to execute the duties of home worship faithfully.

Quote:
We are so busy minding someone else's business that we so easily fail to do our own.



One thing that I am continually impressed with by life in general, is how hard it is to do even one thing well. I am impressed with people who can repair an automobile engine, or build an attractive patio, or plant a productive garden, or a write a good song. Every-time I meet someone who can do one thing well, I see there is always a measure of integrity in their character, even if this virtue is not easily evident on the surface. They may be even be greatly flawed in other ways, but nevertheless they have persevered enough to master an area of knowledge. I find conversing them on their respective subjects usually very instructive to my own character.

Yet, among all the different people I find who have mastered various things, I find the rarest person is one who has mastered themselves. This is a man who is gentle but sturdy, one who is wise but not proud, a man who is aware of his own limitations yet not lazy, and one who has traveled far ahead in his spiritual walk, but always seems to have patience to wait for those who are lagging behind him.

Now there is one more trait this type of man has. He is simple in his heart. He may have two doctorates and a Masters degree, or he may just know how to fix car engines, but he is a simple fellow. That's his secret of self mastery; sophisticated men are too busy mastering other topics to master themselves.

Forgive my bit of country philosophy here, but this is how I see Proverbs 17:24 being played out in my own experience. Many men want to be like John Wesley, but John Wesley wanted to be like the Moravians. Their spiritual service was to clean the filth off of their sailing ship, because "it did our proud hearts good". And the great learned scholar Wesley marveled over and coveted their peace with God.

I am days away from my 43rd birthday, and the sphere of influence I desire has never been smaller. It is a weighty a matter to look to the conversion of my own children. There are times when my ambitious heart grows restless, and I begin to look outside the borders of my home, perhaps in pursuit of a business opportunity, or perhaps even in response to some flattery to take a more visible role in church...but then I see I have underestimated the task at home and an eternal pathos sobers my dreaming imagination.

I am not a great man, but a small one entrusted with a great responsibility. If I cannot keep my eyes diligently on this one task for God until it is completed well, then I have not been faithful, and if I have not been faithful in the responsibility I have been given, then how can I rightfully move on to instruct others in their business for God? It is my goal to learn how to do one thing faithfully for God, and to do it honestly and diligently, knowing these children are more his then mine.

For this specific task, God has provided my soul many rich instructions, both through his Word, and through the Holy Spirit's comfort in many ongoing trials and triumphs. I believe that completing my task successfully will teach me everything he wants me to learn should he have another task for me in the future, or should he take me home.

There is a pleasure I sense from God in me lowering my eyes towards my task. His pleasure brings me a deep abiding peace, and helps me to live daily in his presence. It is a paradox, that my stillness mitigates the awful dread I once had of seeing him face to face when I was busying myself with so many issues I had taken on in an attempt to make peace with him.

Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2008/12/23 2:39Profile
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?


I am following your key point, as I did in the Greenock breakout session ([i]"The key point I am trying to make is that, biblically, the unit of responsibility is 'a church' not 'the church'."[/i]) and I hope this thread gets to the second part of your original post ([i]"a comment on the identity of the messengers; the way in which Jesus Christ imparts 'vision' to the local assembly'[/i]). This second part seems very important to me. (Are you sure the second depends upon the first part?)

Going on with "the test" of the first half of your idea:

1. How do you understand the council at Jerusalem? Did they exercise governmental authority over one or many?

2. Do you see any difficulty in the one offering that Paul brought from many churches to Jerusalem?

3. How did Paul view the many churches he ministered to with their individual difficulties?

4. How did the local churches view the copying and sharing of Paul’s letters? (reading other people’s mail ;-) )

5. Are there more than seven churches (messengers) now? Were there more churches when John wrote?

6. Was there agreement so far on this thread that the church is His Body and that the “currently living in the flesh” aspect of His Body is spread out across nations and in throughout many churches? (I hope so.)

Note: There are distinctions made in the Bible (God’s view) between people groups/nations and groups are called by names though the land may not be divided as man has divided it.

Note: A particular shoe can fit many feet. A man can speak broadly without speaking hierarchically. Are we our brother’s keeper?(a serious question)

 2008/12/23 3:52Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Mike MC
I am moved and challenged by your post. It brought to mind the forgotten verses of the Lamentation;


[color=0033FF]Through the LORD'S mercies we are not consumed.
Because His compassions fall not.
They are new every morning;
Great is your faithfulness.
"The LORD is my portion," says my soul,
Therefore I hope in him."

The LORD is good to those who wait for him.
To the soul who seeks Him.
It is good that one should hope and wait quietly
For the salvation of the LORD.
[b]It is good for a man to bear
The yoke in his youth.[/b][/color]

From my perspective 43 is still young! :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/23 4:45Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Whee Joan... quite a bundle of questions here.

Quote:
"The key point I am trying to make is that, biblically, the unit of responsibility is 'a church' not 'the church'."


You got it!! :-)

Quote:
Going on with "the test" of the first half of your idea:

1. How do you understand the council at Jerusalem? Did they exercise governmental authority over one or many?


You see this is the power of tradition. Everyone calls this 'the council at Jerusalem because they are thinking about the later 'church councils' of the 3-5 centuries. This was not a council it was a conference. The word conference, and confer literally mean to carry something together. This was a gathering of brethren and 'the Word of His grace' came through James. The wonderful thing is that the whole gathering recognized that God had spoken and embraced it.

The later 'councils' were representative and sent delegates. The consequence was that the outcome of these councils was seen to be binding on all the churches represented. The Jerusalem had no legislative power.


Quote:
2. Do you see any difficulty in the one offering that Paul brought from many churches to Jerusalem?


Not at all. These many churches had heard of the plight of one church and their instinct was to aid it. This is spontaneous family function. The organization of the relief was necessary and that was done proficiently.



Quote:
3. How did Paul view the many churches he ministered to with their individual difficulties?


Individually... although it is interesting that to the Corinthian church he frequently reminded them of the pattern of other churches. This was particularly necessary to this church which was proud in its self sufficiency.



Quote:
4. How did the local churches view the copying and sharing of Paul’s letters? (reading other people’s mail )


They were encouraged to do it. See the close of Colossians and the beginning of 1 Corinthians. These are not just letters they are scripture... God breathed.



Quote:
5. Are there more than seven churches (messengers) now? Were there more churches when John wrote?


Yes, there were more than seven churches then as well. Colosse was in this same area. It is interesting that John did not write to Colosse, perhaps this was a church that was outside John's influence at this time. When Paul wrote to Corinth he acknowledged the fact that some churches would not recognize him in his role as apostle.



Quote:
6. Was there agreement so far on this thread that the church is His Body and that the “currently living in the flesh” aspect of His Body is spread out across nations and in throughout many churches? (I hope so.)


It is a good question. The local church at Corinth was encouraged to think of itself as the body of Christ but this was not in a comprehensive sense. There is, in the ultimate sense of Ephesians, just One Body.


Quote:
Note: There are distinctions made in the Bible (God’s view) between people groups/nations and groups are called by names though the land may not be divided as man has divided it.


This is a topic for another thread but the New Testament speaks most of 'ehtnic groups' rather than nation states.

Quote:
Note: A particular shoe can fit many feet. A man can speak broadly without speaking hierarchically. Are we our brother’s keeper?(a serious question)


If I SEE my brother in need, he has become my responsibility.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/23 5:06Profile





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