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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I really do plead with you to abandon this [u]'generation-ism'[/u]. We are in this together for better or worse.



This type language is easy to pick up because so many Pentecostal and Charismatics use it. Reading through [url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/details.php?file=73]the Generation of Jesus Christ[/url] will be quite helpful.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/2 19:45Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: By whose authority?

I thought we ought to take a look at the nature of authority in the New Testament. Accountability and authority are obviously going to go hand in hand. If God has not given authority he will not hold that person accountable. This is a simple statement but vital to understanding the nature of spiritual authority on the personal and corporate level. This is why I asked the question 'just who is responsible?' The simple answer is 'that one to whom God gave authority'.

In business management there is an old saying. If you give someone responsibility without authority all you are giving them is blamability. It is easy to 'blame' 'today's leaders' but are they really responsible? Have they actually been given authority over the areas in which they claim to 'rule'?

What is the 'job definition' of 'today's leaders' and who authored that 'job definition'? What are the Bible's parameters of spiritual authority? Paul's instruction to the 'elders' from Ephesus is surely a critical passage in this quest.

[color=0033FF]Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God* which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28[/color]

The NKJV corrects a serious KJV mistranslation but using the word 'among' rather than the KJV's 'over'. These are 'elders'. They have a God-given authority and hence responsibility. These men are genuinely 'blamable'. They are those who must 'give an account'. Just what are elders?

These are the first references to Israel's 'elders'.

[color=0033FF]Exd 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and [seen] that which is done to you in Egypt:

Exd 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Exd 4:29 And Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the children of Israel:

Exd 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.[/color]

Just who are these men and where have they come from? To understand the concept of biblical eldership we are going to have to start from the very beginning. Are you ready to make a start?


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/3 12:41Profile









 Re:

It depends on a person's eshatology.

Jesus said, "that generation".

The Revelation speaks of the "overcomers" having "the testimony of Jesus" which is, according to Rev 19 - "the spirit of prophecy".

If one believes that they are in "those days" - then one would believe that they need to strive to live out "those days" as an overcomer and with the chance of living out without anyone's hand to hold.

The "authority" can come upon a babe in Christ - if need be - because that authority is 'at the moment' considering the need of the hour, at that moment. Say, in a concentration camp, or prison, like our brothers in China and elsewhere.

I personally would love that the overcomers have that relationship with GOD - that if a time shall come - which it will - when there is no "leaders" around - that they have what it takes to overcome alone - as we all will die alone regardless. No one can usher us into HIS presence, so it appears we're all on our own, to make our walk with HIM or waste it.
Dependence on men may be a stumbling block.
Seems best to point to John 10's description of HIS Sheep and John 16:13, 14 and the such for Whom to depend on - to build up the Body - as mentioned in Eph 4 in the verses following the 5 callings.

Thank you for bearing with another dumb sheep sincerely.

Bless HIS Body.

 2009/1/3 13:57
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

You wrote 'Just who are these men and where have they come from? To understand the concept of biblical eldership we are going to have to start from the very beginning. Are you ready to make a start?'

I think this would be an interesting subject to look into as there is so much tradition in the churches regarding leadership and much misunderstanding as to the New Testament model of church leadership. Note I am using the word leadership as a convenient word for church government, but it is probably not the best term.

I wait with interest Ron's and others views on this.


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Dave

 2009/1/3 15:31Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Jesus-is-GOD on 2009/1/3 15:57:42
The "authority" can come upon a babe in Christ - if need be - because that authority is 'at the moment' considering the need of the hour, at that moment. Say, in a concentration camp, or prison, like our brothers in China and elsewhere.



Authority for what? We all have a personal responsibility for ourselves under God and God will surely give us the grace necessary for each trial as it comes. However, we are not really speaking in this thread about those personal responsibilities; we are speaking about 'corporate responsibility' in the sense of those who bear responsibility for the 'corps' - the body.

God will always give leaders for his saints. The nature of that leadership and the way in which it is exercised may be part of our studies here, but there will always be 'leaders' of some kind.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/3 16:21Profile









 Re:

Quote

"It depends on a person's eshatology."

I believe that this is a good point. Much depends on where one believes we are, right now. In America, there are many that believe that it is business as usual. These may be the so called "sleeping church," or the ones that Ian Paisley is referring to in his opening clip on "revival hymn." He says "wake up you sleepy Christians."

Most people who are looking for revival, are not looking for a restructuring of the church, they are looking for "God to come down." They know that it has to start there. If there is a fire in the house, you get the people out first before you start to sort them out. There has to be life first before anything. If that leads to a restructuring, then so be it. Of course one may disagree and believe that the right "leadership," has to be in place before God will come down.

In a recent Barna poll, it was stated that most Pastors in American churches believed that the spiritual health of their congregation was good. The purpose in Greenock was to call a "solemn assembly." Solemn because of the state of the church. We were to cry out to God and seek forgiveness for the state we had allowed the church to fall into.

2Ch 7:14 if My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Perhaps I travel in small circles, but I simply do not see the humility from present day "leadership,' that would acknowledge that they have failed, that they have come to the end of themselves, that their knowledge and experience has not been enough. I believe that the people, just regular Christians, are and would be more willing to humble themselves before a Holy God and acknowledge that they are on a wrong path.

Again,I think the most important aspect is whether you believe that Jesus is "at the door," in an immediate sense. Whether He is or is not, it seems that the imperative would be to " humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways." Now what does that look like?........brother Frank

 2009/1/3 16:34
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Heydave on 2009/1/3 17:31:05
I wait with interest Ron's and others views on this.



Let's play Sherlock Holmes. Why did the dog not bark? :-)
In other words, let's ask the question, "why were there no elders before this time?" I suggest... because they were not needed. This may give us a real key to much of the way in which God works.. necessity.

We have a fascinating record of 'necessity' being the pre-condition for a provision of God in the choice of the Seven in the Acts. These men are usually called 'deacons' although they are not so designated in the scripture. The point is that these men were not appointed until the necessity arose; then God provided. Is the reason that God apparently 'does not provide' because there is really 'no need'?

How about this astonishing promise...

[color=0033FF]So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him. Isaiah 59:19[/color]

..do you see how the necessity provides the setting for God's provision?

So let's rephrase the question... "why was there no need for elders before the time of the Exodus"?


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/3 16:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
appolus on 2009/1/3 18:34:50
In a recent Barna poll, it was stated that most Pastors in American churches believed that the spiritual health of their congregation was good. The purpose in Greenock was to call a "solemn assembly." Solemn because of the state of the church. We were to cry out to God and seek forgiveness for the state we had allowed the church to fall into.


Barna is so committed to the 'unstructured house church' movement that his findings always need to be taken with a pinch of salt.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/3 16:42Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Egypt. There was already in place a specific type of social structure or law.


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D.Miller

 2009/1/3 18:09Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Daryl's: Egypt. There was already in place a specific type of social structure or law.



And before this was not the patriarch or [i]pater familias[/i] (Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.) essentially the ruling authority? Job almost acted as the priest of his family making offerings on their behalf to God. So we see then a connection between a man that fears God and God given authority.

Where people congregate their has to be an authority structure. Francis Schaffer pointed out that the ancient world struggled to maintain law and order because they had no foundation to set their society on; that is, they did not have God as the law giver. So when God is made the basis on which authority is established the whole dynamic changes.

It is interesting that Israel wanted a King, but God desired to direct the people through the Judges and Prophets. When the Rabbi's were ready for total self-rule they made laws that disregarded [u]anything[/u] prophetic. This is quite a lesson to consider. The Pharisees took the Law and created Rabbinic Judaism and locked God out by giving the authority to the Rabbi's.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/3 21:15Profile





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