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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I Jesus

That moves me! your commentary on the yoke of Christ agrees with AD. in his last post. What a refreshing look at something known but somehow forgotten over the years. God Bless bro. daryl


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D.Miller

 2009/1/2 7:33Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Local church

Hi Brother Frank,

I have been following this thread since it's start and thought I would enter as a late sub (to follow Ron's analogy of soccer - 'playing the ball' et al)!

Regarding the point made by appolus about the local church structure, I think this is an important point. During my Christian life I have been involved in / with a variety of church structures ranging from the very 'un-structured' house church with no pre-planned worship or message to the more formal hymn/prayer sandwich with a 40 minute sermon at the end.

Although I have some quite definitive beliefs about church structure and government, I have concluded that it does not neccesarily matter which format is chosen (even if it is the most biblical) if there is no living, dynamic relationship with our living head (our Lord Jesus Christ) then all that will be ministered amongst the body will be dead religion at best and the philosophy of man at worst.

You can belive all the right things and structure the church to be in-line with biblical standards (to the best you can understand) and it can still have no life. Conversely you may have a church structure that is less than ideal (say a one man Pastor leadership model), but the 'Pastor' and members are 'abiding in the vine' and producing fruit from the life giving sap flowing through them.

I feel such a strong desire at this time to want nothing but to fellowship with my 'Living Head' and have His life flowing in reality in me and to fellowship with others (local church) who are also living in this flow. I have to confess that much of the time I myself fall far short of this position, but it is my hearts desire. Also I understand that my brothers and sisters will always fall short, but let us all at least have this desire and strive to experience that 'it's no longer I that live, but Christ that liveth in me'.

I had the priveledge of being at Greenock and was so blessed with the fellowship of other believers from such different church structures, but who had a heart for knowing our God. Coming back afterwards into the local church is hard and can be frustrating (not trying to be critical ) as so much emphasis is on things not of eternal importance.


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Dave

 2009/1/2 8:43Profile









 Re:

Hi Dave....you write

"I had the priveledge of being at Greenock and was so blessed with the fellowship of other believers from such different church structures, but who had a heart for knowing our God. Coming back afterwards into the local church is hard and can be frustrating (not trying to be critical ) as so much emphasis is on things not of eternal importance."

God bless you brother. Your hearts desire to seek after a "living , dynamic relationship touches my heart. This is where it will start. For over 20 years I was a builder. The most important part of any structure is the foundation. It is also the most difficult part to build. The excavation can be unpredictable, sometimes hitting rock or old sewers or whatever. All of this has to be overcome before you can ever start thinking about building. And the greater the structure, the deeper the foundation.

One would have to have been involved in the organisation of the Greenock conference to know that there were many sacrifices made by people. One had to surrender, in certain aspects, dearly held belief's and traditions. I am not talking about essentials of the faith. That is why the focus of the prayer was three-fold. The first night we approached the walls of the stronghold on our knees. The stronghold was multi-faceted, but mainly denominational division. We were directed to assualt this wall with prayer. The second night we had the breakthrough, there was a breach in the wall. The third night we rushed the breach and entered the stronghold.

I believe this to be a pattern for every city or region. If the stronghold of divisivness is left intact, their can be no "one accord." This is a centuries old problem. One of the greatest problems, in my opinion, is a cynical disbelief that this can be achieved. Usually this disbelief comes from people who have been in the ministry "for a long time." Well, there is a generation arising that is tired of following this old leadership, tired of wandering around in a desert, tired of looking at the promised land and listening to people scoff and say "there are giants in there."

In Greenock, we dared to cross over the river and assault the walls of Jericho. I think we proved that those giants, with willing participants, can be overcome. Was it perfect? Nooo. Did it go according to plan? No. What batle ever goes according to plan? Yet, wars are won by people who are willing to engage.

The one unifying force that brought the greatly diversified disciples together was Jesus Himself. As it was then, so it is now. I believe that there is a reformation coming brother, and it will be led by people like yourself, people who are tired and very thirsty,having wandered in the desert for long enough. Will the old guard scoff and laugh?Yes. If you have been in leadership for decades and the Spiritual landscape is bleak to say the least, then you bear some responsibility for that. How many leaders walked out of the desert?

If one seeks the presence of the Lord, and this is his primary aim and he purues this at all cost, then the excavation has begun. The foundation is Jesus Himself. Find His presence, and the structure will be built, according to how His decree's. I think "gathered in my name,' should be more closely considered. If not, one is in danger of a Cain's spirit......brother Frank


 2009/1/2 10:54
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

This is a challenge and can be a fearful thing for many, as this will challenge many traditions that are held dear and considered to be foundational truth.

The only foundation is Christ and the doctrines of Christ and the Apostles. May God in His grace reveal to us any foundations that are not this, but just traditions of man or our own predudices.
I don't want to be mis-understood about this. I am not saying put aside truth, as the revealed truth is something we must contend for in these days of deception. However we need to be sure that which we hold so dear is really biblical truth?

I consider that Ephesians ch.4 tells us there are two aspects of unity. Unity of the Spirit (because we are one in Christ) and unity of the faith (the doctrines of Christ)which we are all coming into. We are told to keep the unity of the Spirit (v.3) until we come to the unity of the faith (v.13). This is accomplished by the ministry of the whole body (in a local setting?), who are equiped by the various ministry gifts such as apostles; pastor/teachers; prophets etc. (v.7-12).

I think this turns us back towards Ron's original point.

By the way (as it is relevant), although I am also from Reading, UK I am not at the same church as Ron B and we only met for the first time at Greenock even though we are local to each other! Hopefully we will meet up again as I will probably visit his (local) church at some point soon (advanced warning Ron!).


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Dave

 2009/1/2 12:48Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That is a precious thing. "I Jesus" as if to remind us that in Him there is no shadow of turning. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. He is still meek and lowly and offering a kindly yoke.


This is good to read but the Jesus of the Revelation is no teddy-bear. Part of the description is that a two-edged sword proceeds from his mouth. This word for 'sword' is not the sharp two edged sword of Hebrews which 'pierces' this is [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4501&t=KJV]Strong's G4501 - rhomphaia[/url]. It is the Thracian 'slaughter weapon'. It is essentially a double edged sword on a long handle, designed for disembowelling. No wonder John passed out. :-(


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/2 14:43Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
You can belive all the right things and structure the church to be in-line with biblical standards (to the best you can understand) and it can still have no life. Conversely you may have a church structure that is less than ideal (say a one man Pastor leadership model), but the 'Pastor' and members are 'abiding in the vine' and producing fruit from the life giving sap flowing through them.


This is absolutely true, hence my little comment about 'little schemes of perfection'. This is why ultimately labels are irrelevant but sometimes can be a distracting irrelevance, similar to the labels we put on the front of our buildings!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2009/1/2 14:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
" Well, there is a generation arising that is tired of following this old leadership, tired of wandering around in a desert, tired of looking at the promised land and listening to people scoff and say "there are giants in there."


I am afraid this is the language of the Manifested Sons of God, The Call and so many other. In the true church of God there is only one generation. Paul stood against Peter because he was creating a schizophrenic 'body' of a Jewish church and a Gentile church. The same thing happens when we refer to 'yesterday's church' and 'tomorrow's church' or when we tell the young people that they are 'tomorrow's church'.

I really do plead with you to abandon this 'generation-ism'. We are in this together for better or worse.


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/2 15:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Hopefully we will meet up again as I will probably visit his (local) church at some point soon (advanced warning Ron!).


We'll shake out the red carpet. :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/2 15:06Profile









 Re:

Quote


"I am afraid this is the language of the Manifested Sons of God, The Call and so many other. In the true church of God there is only one generation."

Just because strange groups of people use certain language, does not nullify the point. Just for clarification, the reference to generation is not age based, its just simply the reference to a group of hungry and thirsty believers. Its not really all that helpful to conjure up images of the worse excesses of the Charismatic movement and then align that where it does not belong. For further clarification, I believe that the younger generation is in most jeopardy. They are in jeopardy because of some of the groups mentioned by Ron, soulish groups at best. They are in equal danger from dead denominations. Again, its all about the presence of God and a focus on Jesus, actually Jesus. When men spend their time seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness, then the nuts and bolts of how we should gather will fall into place..........brother Frank

 2009/1/2 15:21
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It is the Thracian 'slaughter weapon'. It is essentially a double edged sword on a long handle, designed for [u]disembowelling[/u]. No wonder John passed out



:-o Well, I'm trying to get balanced I guess. For so long I have been so far on the passed out side that I couldn't see the meek and mild. I suppose as long as we are in Christ we have no need to fear that.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/2 19:36Profile





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