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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
How do you see the churches in Asia as to structure and function one to the other?


Let's think 'family' rather than 'media centre' or even 'preaching centre'.

This is one of the underlying problems we shall face when we begin to try to understand the patterns of church life in the New Testament era. What is our concept of 'the local church' and 'what is its prime purpose'?


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/31 16:44Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Let's think 'family' rather than 'media centre' or even 'preaching centre'

Quote:
What is our concept of 'the local church' and 'what is its prime purpose'?


I always thought the purpose of the local church was to raise up missionaries to reach the lost around the world, but I see that as being a very shallow and narrow understanding of the local church these days. The trouble is that I've personally been involved in to many, what I would call Para-church organizations which specilized in certain aspects that should be part and parcel in the regular local church. Like street evangelization or out reach to the needy or poor.

The local church --as Robert put it---seems to stay in a self protective mode, they guard thier resources and thier reputations. While parachurches seem to have a few christians who give thier all in resources, time, and talents. Now I have had a hard time reconciling the two together. I hate to sound fleshly but they don't fell the same and they deffinitely don't function the same. I do know they are all family in the sense that Jesus is Lord, but it gets difficult to see the two churches as being supportive of one another, since in many cases they are not.
And so to your question which has followed me all day and begged for an answer, thats something I'll need to prayerfully work out because I just don't know. :-(


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D.Miller

 2009/1/1 1:12Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What is our concept of 'the local church' and 'what is its prime purpose'?



I recall from my studies in Jewish roots (:knockedout:) that synagogues were mini expressions of the Temple meant to be a light in that community. i understand that they were to be built on the highest hill of area of the town or city so as to be easily visible to strangers coming into town that might need help.

[color=000066]Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, [i]but on a candlestick[/i]; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5)[/color]

I think that the local church with its candlestick serves as a light first among the gathered believers and second to their community and then the whole world. It seems that the body being rightly edified will make increase of itself. This edification serves to cause the truth that is in Jesus to become the truth that is in us. And as a result you get:


[color=000066]the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4)[/color]

I see here increase in the body being the natural consequence of that body functioning properly and healthy.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2009/1/1 5:31Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: church-para church-house church o my:(

I think that's the ideal, and like so much of what we see in life as it reflects or works out in the church verses scripture it seems to fall way short. I see para churches verses churches. The para church seems to stand in a bold contrast against the status quo of the church which is really nothing more than a safe place to go with your family on sunday morning. A place where the testamony is : "they are good and moral people", but that's about it. In the worlds eyes the JW's and the Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists....etc...are the same. That's why I said Ron's last post has some real radical and deep implications if thought out to its conclusions. Even in the house church movement, when he says Family, that really changes the whole dynamic especially as it pretains to practical helps and love one toward another set within the context of edification. In that context "the Word of His Grace" really takes on a different meaning. Don't you think?


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D.Miller

 2009/1/1 10:11Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Question;

Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

ME!

But seriously as I read through the thread I remembered what a buddy of mine said in prayer as he was angrily protesting to God about the church.
He said to the Lord "where is the God of Elijah?

The Lord answered "where are the Elijahs?"

Part of the answer could be in the example of Moses,Joshua, and the crossing of the Jordan,
.

We got across alright,and are gathered together.
Along with Moses and Joshua.

 2009/1/1 11:29Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:

I have been part of a church which believed almost all of these things... as a principle. It was not until I became part of the church where I am now that I actually saw it in action.

The difference lay in 'faith'. It was not just the grasping of a concept but active faith in Jesus Christ to lead his church.




Please enlarge on this for us. What does "active faith in Jesus Christ to lead his church" involve?

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/1 11:49Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
...the functions spoken of in Ephesians 4:11 are 'gifts' given to the whole church and not to a local church. The interesting thing to note is that we know that 'apostles, prophets and evangelists' were itinerant roles in the New Testament era. So what about 'pastor-teacher'? Was that function 'itinerant' too? and if the 'pastor-teacher' was itinerant what are we to say about the modern pattern of having a 'resident pastor-teacher'?



I think this is right. All the throne ministries, including pastors and teachers, are gifts to the whole church.

At the same time, they would be part of a local church, elders in a local church, and they would go out as the Lord led.

As at Antioch. "Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers..."

AD


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Allan Halton

 2009/1/1 12:13Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Man’s effort after knowing God

With many others I have greatly appreciated the conversation and various wrestlings here. I have been following this thread as I study through Exodus, which might help explain what follows.

[u]There IS something about man that wants to understand the order of things[/u]. Moses wanted to. He asked to know God’s way, to know Him, to find grace (imparted enabling) in light of the fact that these people were the people of God (not his people). Having found grace in God’s sight (enabled to bring forth God’s people), Moses needed this grace. Look at what had just happened (the idol). How could that possibly fit with what Moses knew of God? [Many “leaders” must cry out like this regarding events in their congregations and gatherings.]. What is going on here (what is God doing)? How is Moses to proceed? [u]What is the unseen order here[/u]? On a personal level we ask about the death of loved ones, Godly leaders used of God etc.

[u]And again, there IS something about man that wants to understand the order of things[/u]. Those that asked for an idol also needed some understanding of the order of things. With no leader to fix on, they went to fixing on an idol thing, their stab at making “an order of things”. This helps explain to me why [u]sometimes[/u] we might still fix on a leader as “a thing.”: namely, in an effort to establish an order of things; and why congregations decide they need a different pastor, or individuals decide they need a different church.

[u]And again, there IS something about man that wants to understand the order of things[/u]. Nothing lies outside of His power and authority. All of the Old Testament was required in filling up time (all those kings and prophets and captivity) and 400 years of silence. And in this New thing, man still wants to understand the order of things (even here on this thread). There are thousands of examples. Liturgy has to do with the order of things. What about “Roman Catholic Church,” Fox’s martyrs, Lakeland, etc.?

“And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.” We often can see God in history, after-the-fact (from behind) such as when we see, in retrospect, His hand on us before we are born again and begin to know Him. We seek God’s way in things so as to go that way.

As an example to add balance to this thread, I noticed [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26687&forum=45&2 ]this 12/30/08 posting[/url]: [i]“Christianity as an institution has long been occupied with things: churches, clergy, teachings, doctrines, religious things. The "house church movement" is similarly engrossed in the dynamics of how to meet, where to meet, and what to do when meeting. The "charismatic movement" is obsessed with alleged manifestations and spiritual gifts. The "prophetic movement" is absorbed with what they think God is saying, doing, or about to do. [b]Paul was preoccupied with a Person[/b],”[/i]

In revival God makes His way know “up-close”, makes Himself know, shows us his Glory “in-the-fact” or as close to “in-the-fact” as maybe we might hope for and live. And of course, like Moses there is all the “after-the-fact” seeing of His Glory in revival (Ex. 34:6-9).

In all of this there is encouragement:

1. God desires to make Himself known to man.
2. Although we cannot see Him and live, [u]we can hear Him and live[/u].
3. We have some praying ground in common with Moses (Ex. 33:12-13).

Edit: bold

 2009/1/1 14:22Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Please enlarge on this for us. What does "active faith in Jesus Christ to lead his church" involve?


It means not putting your trust in a principle but in Christ himself. Several times in Hebrews in one way or another we are enjoined to 'consider Him'...'we have such an high priest'. See how the writer focuses on the person of Christ in all his 'offices'.

Christ as personal High Priest interceding is a familiar point, as is the seated High Priest reigning but Christ as the High Priest walking among the lampstands.. there is much less spoken of. And yet we all pay lip service to the notion that Christ 'is in the midst' but do we really believe it?


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/1 16:00Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But seriously as I read through the thread I remembered what a buddy of mine said in prayer as he was angrily protesting to God about the church.
He said to the Lord "where is the God of Elijah?



Did you know that God forbids 'angry prayers'? 1Tim 2:8 ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2009/1/1 16:02Profile





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