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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Just because we feel we have some understanding as to what is the right and scriptural pattern does not mean we can set about to manufacture it. It's been tried, and it fails.


Oh, this is such an important point. I have been part of a church which believed almost all of these things... as a principle. It was not until I became part of the church where I am now that I actually saw it in action.

The difference lay in 'faith'. It was not just the grasping of a concept but active faith in Jesus Christ to lead his church.

I have a short quotation which I always transcribe into the back pages of my Bibles. It comes from a man called Anthony Norris Groves... it reads.

[color=0033FF]What a blessing it is that the Lord's heart is so large, that He can help wherever he sees some good thing; whereas man withdraws whenever he sees some evil thing, which is generally found to mean something that wounds his own self-love in the little scheme he had set up as perfection.[/color]

I write it in my Bibles because as a Bible teacher it is my most persistent temptation. One day when I am able I plan to write a book on 'spiritual authority in the local church' I have a working title ready; I shall call it 'little schemes of perfection'!

I do pray that in all these discussions God will prevent us from creating another little scheme of perfection. Nevertheless we are honour bound to try to understand God's ways and to ensure that our ways are consistent with the inspired archive.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/30 15:51Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think I recall reading, Tom, that you have spent time in China. Any thoughts on this?



I have strong links with China. You are right in what you have described. Not that it is universal but there are strong authoritarian models at work in some of the house churches.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/30 15:54Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think that it takes a very special man/woman at the helm to patiently oversee any group of people in wisdom.


Now there's an interesting word!

[color=0033FF]and God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, [b]governments[/b], diversities of tonguess. 1 Cor 12:28[/color]

that word 'governments' is from a Latin word 'kubernesis'. It means a 'helmsman'. It is also the word we get 'cybernetic' from which is a 'steered machine'.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/30 16:05Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

interesting. Who was that took all the gold and silver statues of the roman church and melted as tax payment, and commented that they would put the saints into circulation?
I beleive that most christians are waiting to be used or at least feel that it is alright for them to be expressions of the work of Christ in a way that they would be used. Here too many that I talk to only see 2 dimentional ways to edify or help in the churches, things like nursery workers or washing and painting, basically the stuff most full time pastors will not do, and so they feel beneath the ministry. This has been very hard to break through in peoples thinking, even in my few speaking engagements. To get people to become an expression of Jesus in life and within the church. And to move out in faith believing that they can in deed hear from God for themselves.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/30 16:21Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 The Didache

Mention has been made of The Didache and I found this website which might interest some.

[url=http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Didache.html]The Didache[/url]

Go to Chapter 11 and read how to handle itinerant apostles and prophets! This is a fascinating document. Not scripture but a document which gives an amazing picture of life in the churches at the turn of the Ist century.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/30 16:32Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
Nevertheless we are honour bound to try to understand God's ways and to ensure that our ways are consistent with the inspired archive.


Everytime I hear of the purity of Jesus Christ, it arrests my thinking and takes me back to something that happened to me and an understanding I had from the Lord into His nature and very character, where I saw His purity as Him not having any alterior motives when He approaches mankind outside of the best good for any individual outside of anything it would or could do for Him. He needed nothing for the good that He did toward us.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/30 16:38Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: The Didache

Wow, what a chapter! I have read it before but forgot all about it. That might stop many a visiting ministers these days :-(


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D.Miller

 2008/12/30 16:43Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor-teachers

I wanted to add a little more to the mix.

The Ephesian letter is different to (English usage!!) any of Paul's other letters. He had spent 3 years in Ephesus and yet there are no personal greetings as with his other letters. There are manuscripts of 'Ephesians' which omit the word 'Ephesus' and have a space where the word could be inserted. This has led some Bible students to suggest that Ephesians was a circular letter and we 'happen' to have a copy of the one which was sent to Ephesus.

It may even be the letter to the Laodiceans which is mentioned at the end of Colossians. Col 4:16

This led some of the early Brethren teachers to suggest that 'the church' under discussion in Ephesians is NOT the church in Ephesus but rather the Universal Church which spans the generations and has its members in both heaven and earth as well as those who will join it in future times.

Why all this introduction? Well, to suggest that the functions spoken of in Ephesians 4:11 are 'gifts' given to the whole church and not to a local church. The interesting thing to note is that we know that 'apostles, prophets and evangelists' were itinerant roles in the New Testament era. So what about 'pastor-teacher'? Was that function 'itinerant' too? and if the 'pastor-teacher' was itinerant what are we to say about the modern pattern of having a 'resident pastor-teacher'?


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/30 16:54Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I want to combine a couple thoughts here from Ron and Daryl:


Quote:
Ron's: Was that function 'itinerant' too? and if the 'pastor-teacher' was itinerant what are we to say about the modern pattern of having a 'resident pastor-teacher'?



Daryl's: The function of visiting ministers in many cases is that they will address issues that many pastors will not, for what ever reason. The trouble is here too, that many churches will not have guest speakers anymore because of the cost and or out of fear that the guest speaker will leave a spiritual mess that the pastor will have to clean up.



I think of a situation the Lord was in:

[color=000066] Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?

And they were offended at him.

But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching (Mark 6). [/color]

I understand that the role of 'prophet' is different than pastor-teacher, but would the phenomena the Lord experienced here be any different than what resident teachers and preachers experience? It has been my experience that I could teach or preach in my home church for years and not get the response I have gotten by driving 300 miles to another state (and spoke a very similar message).

Who was it that said [i]familiaritas parit contemptum[/i] (familiarity breeds contempt)? If the people were able to write-off Jesus, how much more would they write me utterly off? So it seems to me that an itinerant role is necessary to combat some strange human behavior that tends to give ear to strangers.

I think this also squares with I Corinthians 14:

[color=000066]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [/color]

Here we have a people refusing to 'hear' even after God sends them strangers, and more than strangers, even folk that did not speak their language!

Could this be why these functions (pastor/teacher) are itinerant?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/30 20:28Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: appolus

Quote:
"Whoever pays the piper calls the tune." Can we really expect ministers to "bite the hand that feeds them?"


Hey bro!I can't answer for other church affiliates, but I can tell you that the Church Of God (Cleveland Tenn.) bases the salary of the pastors on church membership. That has been abused and tainted from the top down. They have made an idol out of thier numbers inorder to gain bigger and bigger salaries and to prottect thier little kingdoms. Thats why they are in decline, I believe the idol of membership numbers which don't exsist is thier god. Once you join a church and are on the rolls you are a member for life, even if you attend there no more. That way they keep thier numbers high and thier salaries high too. There are other shaddy practices too in the way they conduct buisness and monies, but I won't go there. The bottom line is that they dance mostly to no mans tune and have become fat and self willed.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/30 22:11Profile





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