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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:

These individual lampstands may indeed be of beaten work and from a single piece of gold, but they are not organically connected as were the seven branches of the lampstand in the church of Israel.



Yes, each of the seven lampstands John saw in The Revelation is an autonomous church responsible to the the Lord Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Headquarters.

I am just saying that in each locale (and I am not clear what governs the boundaries of a locale) all the true saints of the Lord are to be part of that one lampstand, and not, as now, scattered among various denominations with some earthly type of headquarters.

In a certain city, say, City X, for example, there may be a number of groups gathering here and there in different homes or whatever... but they would all integrally a part of that one lampstand.

I said I am not clear on what governs the boundaries of a locale. Perhaps it is simply an area where people are able to get together easily, practically, for fellowship?

Any thoughts on that?

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2008/12/30 10:45Profile









 Re:

Quote


" Notice I said 'the work of the ministry' not the 'office of the ministry'. ie the function not the role."

I think Ron makes a great point here. This discussion is not about doing away with Pastors, I believe, nor is it anti-clerical. There is a role within the churches for pastors obviously. Again and again it seems to come back to the "Elders." If you were to make the case for anyone being supported, it would probably be for the elders, some of who may be pastors, or teachers or whoever. In the one man system, you have a lot of pressure on that man. If the large tithers pay the bills and his salary, then, by human nature, he will be influenced, to one degree or another, by this. I think part of the problem may be that when the widow put her mite in the collection, she did not add her name and address for future tax purposes. The Lord saw what she gave. In this realm,given what commonly occurs in churches then , proportionate to what she gave, she should have the greatest influence. Anyway, I think the story Robert told, for rules being changed because large tithers complained, is the practical outcome of the system we currently have in many churches........Frank

 2008/12/30 11:02
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:

ps: I have felt desparately alone in this fight, for many years....almost like I was shadow boxing. I'm stunned that some are with me.





That's why I too have been so greatly encouraged by this thread. I believe we are in the dawning of a new day. We are going to see the kind of churches that are going to bring "the world" down. Needless to say, they will not be popular.

It seems we fall prey to the hierarchical kind of church order so easily. Even in China it has happened. The house church movement in China (not that they were trying to have a movement) has been such a testimony all over the earth. Over the years I've been much encouraged with what I heard was happening.

Yet more recently, in my reading I would come across things like, "...So and so, who heads up a house church of so many thousands of members in China..."

I came across words to that effect three or four times. And I grieved upon hearing of it. Why? Why? Why do we fall prey to this pattern so easily?

And what is it going to take for us to resist the temptation?

Please understand I have an immense respect, even awe, for what has happened in China over the past few decades. The selfless, sacrificial walk of the many saints there is a testimony second to none.

But I think it is a weakness, and not God's will, when church starts to take this hierarchical shape. (I'm suspicious it happened in China because of western influence.)

I think I recall reading, Tom, that you have spent time in China. Any thoughts on this?

AD


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Allan Halton

 2008/12/30 11:10Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:
So, it looks like we are going to be starved into the right model. When we are hungry enough, when we are so thirsty that we are almost going to die, then we will gather where the water is, just as the deer panteth for the waterbrooks, so our souls will eventually longeth after Him.And we will seek Him in in a manner that is pleasing to Him, and He will, perhaps see us coming from a long way of and run to us.




I appreciated your words, Appolus. Just because we feel we have some understanding as to what is the right and scriptural pattern does not mean we can set about to manufacture it. It's been tried, and it fails.

Only God can do it. Those who are hungry enough will be drawn together to seek Him earnestly. If we seek Him with all our hearts we will find Him. Find GOD. What a thought.

A body can be a perfect body, but with no life in it, it is dead.

You can get all the scriptural things in place for a correct new testament church, and still find it dead.

Only The Life can cause the Body to take shape around its bones.

There will be no Light in the lampstand without the Oil burning in it.

How we must come before Him, and let the Lord of the Church have His Way.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2008/12/30 11:24Profile









 Re: Descending into hierarchy in China.



I had a very brief stay in China..[ 6 weeks or so..]. I did encounter the true "underground Church" which was persecuted and hunted, cautious of outsiders, and somewhat fearful. The consequences, or cost of their being caught, especially with me, an American, were staggering. They may lose their jobs, and thereby children...and they could go to prison. There have been reports of executions that I have heard of, but I could not verify them.



Understanding the strategy and political objectives in China may help you understand the Church, and the double standard that exist there. The Red Chinese created industrial and capitol juggernauts after the model of Hong Kong throughout China. These are called "economic zones", where full blown capitalism is encouraged, and the cities there are not unlike any in the west. Freeways, high rises by the mile, restaurants, bars, immoral businesses, Walmart and Starbucks.


There are at least 5 of these zones. The idea is that China cannot be changed unilaterally, so the govt. reduced industry, boiled it down , into a manageable vessel. There may be less than 100 million people that are allowed in these areas,but are forbidden to the average citizen, who needs something akin to a passport to travel there. This is china's cash cow, where salaries generally are about 1 to 8 or ten of the west. These are the manufacturing cities where the worlds and Americas commodities are made, at a bargain.


There is an underground Church , or one that calls itself that in these areas. This is the theoretical underground church, that may be mildly harassed by the Chi-Coms, and that, in my opinion, kept up as a ruse for the world to believe that there is no real political persecution..and if so , only mildly. Most of these "persecuted churches" meet somewhat openly, and are supported by the naive of the west that believe they are helping the cause of Christ. My feeling was that many of these Pastors were of the "YOUR BEST LIFE NOW" ilk, and supported by such.



I met one of these so called leaders at a huge high tech swimming pool at his luxury condominium. It was luxurious. He promptly identified himself as part of the "underground" church. It was grieving to me. He supposedly oversaw several churches. I left.



This leaves about one billion plus people on the outside. there are , in affect, two "underground churches"....one false, in the economic zones, and the real one, that is hidden, and where there is no news or publicity about them. It is somewhat like our "dark ages", where any thing against Rome was repressed. It is a totalitarian rule there. You can be arrested for anything. This is where the true "underground church" is prominent.

 2008/12/30 13:42
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Thanks, Tom. Yes, that is helpful.

I knew of the "Three Self" church in China, the government sanctioned and controlled church. But I didn't there was also a counterfeit house church thing, like the one you've described.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2008/12/30 13:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Just because we feel we have some understanding as to what is the right and scriptural pattern does not mean we can set about to manufacture it. It's been tried, and it fails.



But there is a pattern, and its not that men have tried it and failed...its that men (we) forsake the pattern and get distracted with other things... Jesus gave us the pattern:

[b]
Quote:
Go therefore and(Y) make disciples of(Z) all nations,(AA) baptizing them(AB) in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them(AC) to observe all that(AD) I have commanded you

[/b]

Pretty simple...

-----------------------

I have some questions about some statements that seem a little amibuous:

Quote:
Only God can do it. Those who are hungry enough will be drawn together to seek Him earnestly. If we seek Him with all our hearts we will find Him. Find GOD. What a thought.



What if we have already found God...in the person of Jesus Christ? I do apologize for my directness, but statements like this frustrate me about as much as the term "revival"...it seems as though we are always waiting for something....like U2 " I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For..."

Has not God revealed Himself perfectly in Christ and according to Jesus Himself, He is found in His written Word.

So as long as a local church is preaching Christ in all the Scripture, then they are a true Church and are a light in their community.

Quote:
A body can be a perfect body, but with no life in it, it is dead.[/quote/]

Again please forgive the directness, but where do we get this life? or rather...where is this life found?

In Him...was Life...in Christ..and Christ is revealed in the written word.

Quote:
Only The Life can cause the Body to take shape around its bones



And Ezekeil was commanded to prophesy to those bones so that they should live. He was commanded to proclaim the Word of the Lord. That Word is Christ, and He is revealed in the written Word of God.

Quote:
There will be no Light in the lampstand without the Oil burning in it



Who is the oil. The Holy Spirit...and He said the when He comes he would not speak of himself, but of Christ...the Word. Where do we get the oil to keep our lamp burning....to keep our candlesticks burning....in the written Word of God.




 2008/12/30 14:37
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
beaten work


As iron sharpens iron :-) Trouble is we generally don't really consider each other as really family, not to the point where we would lay our lives down for the brethren, that is why we are so eaisly offended. I was reading the account of Joseph in gen... and realized that he was just excited but in his excitement he had caused and offense that cost him dearly. I think that it takes a very special man/woman at the helm to patiently oversee any group of people in wisdom.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/30 15:28Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
I think this point is essential to this thread because I have heard of folk getting upset at what individuals shared in a meeting and pressure the pastor to shut them down.


The function of visiting ministers in many cases is that they will address issues that many pastors will not, for what ever reason. The trouble is here too, that many churches will not have guest speakers anymore because of the cost and or out of fear that the guest speaker will leave a spiritual mess that the pastor will have to clean up. The church in the USA is also in such a decline that most churches no longer have services on sunday night or even a wednesday night service.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/30 15:36Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

without a vision the people perish. The primary role of any pastor is to help the people learn to discern between good and evil and to lay a good foundation in the thinking of those sheep so that when the Lord does move with vision, the sheep are ready to move into what ever God has called them to.
To use your soccer example, leadership needs to be willing to pass the ball and allow teammates to score a goal or at least shoot the ball, reguardless of the outcome, and that takes not only discernment but great faith and trust.


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/12/30 15:46Profile





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