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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Although it is not scripture it is probably authentic and while its instructions are not 'scripture' it does give a fascinating insight into the patterns of church life in the period which comes right at the end of our New Testament period.



Then it is safe to say that as long as a person was able they were expected to work. I think of the passage, "if a man does not work neither should they eat."

The link I am looking into is the obstacle to genuine church life being so many full time pastors and leaders needing a source of income. I'll get the helmet. :-?




You better leave that thing on then you wont have to go get it all the time :-P

In my church, that dont have pastors all who are elders have work, many of them have large family's also five, six and even ten children. How they find the time to organize and do what they do i guess is an enablement from the Lord and sacrifice from their part. But what i think is a key is the fulltime pastors are so busy because they do ALL the work that otherwise should be maybe divided up in the church among the members of the body. Imagine a hand doing all the work in the body, it wouldent work. The heart does something, the eyes something and the legs something. The head organizes everything into harmony.

And maybe our lifestyle also keep us in such a grip we need a very high income. Maybe we should settle for less so we can work and still have time for the Lords work in the church?




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CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/29 17:33Profile









 Re: A death knell to the professional and hireling!

As I have stated in this thread, and others, I believe that the "Professional" ministry class must be torn down before we see true glory in our communities and meetings. The sad facts are that our current Clergy centered church model just does not allow for body ministry, or any other ministry outside of their approval or control. This class basically deems itself worthy, and only themselves worthy of being supported, as well as capable of ministry. The Ephesian model and Romans model of each joint supplies, and "one has a word, one a teaching, one a testimony, and prophesies one by one as others judge",,,,is entirely abolished, in favor of a more qualified ans singular voice.


"DIDACHE"....in this instance, "he will not live with you idle...", can be found rooted in many scriptures, in particular ACTS 20, when Paul lifts his hands up, expressing his model of self support, self sacrifice, and the mercies of giving and supporting OTHERS as an ELDER, or shepherd...all equal.


He also brings into play the words of Jesus; "It is more blessed to give than receive.!"


"If any man.....[that's the Pastors too..] does not work, HE SHALL NOT EAT!"


If you think these truths out to their logical conclusion, they spell out a death sentence to the one man show, and to the professional, suit wearing ministry. When man controls, the Holy spirit loses control. True worship, and body ministry is quenched. The church is a loving group of brothers and sisters , who live under one roof with their Father as Head of the Table.






Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
If a prophet desires to abide with you, and if he is a tradesman, let him work and eat. However, if he has no trade, according to your understanding see to it that as a christian, he will not live with you idle.

Didache


The Didache, or the Teaching of the Twelve is a very early document dating to the very beginning of the 2nd century ie the early 100s. Although it is not scripture it is probably authentic and while its instructions are not 'scripture' it does give a fascinating insight into the patterns of church life in the period which comes right at the end of our New Testament period.

We still find 'apostles and prophets' itinerating among the churches and absolutely no trace of a single elder/pastor or the territorial 'bishop'. It is powerful evidence... but as you say 'not scripture.' Neither is there any evidence of the organizational linkage between the churches.





"THE KINGS AND LORDS OF THE GENTILES EXERCISE LORDSHIP OVER THEM....AND THOSE WHO EXERCISE AUTHORITY OVER THEM ARE CALLED BENEFACTORS, BUT IT SHALL NOT SO BE NAMED AMONG YOU. ........ON THE CONTRARY".........



We are blood washed and equal, even unto the least of the brethren. Their is no clergy class, but there are those who are called to oversee, teach and preach. There are those gifted with the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, and all of these are served up from down under, as a brother first, and a foot washer. It is about impartation of Heaven as a slave to the body, with the weak first. "Until we all come to the fullness and unity in Christ."




 2008/12/29 17:38
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

Here is an excerpt from a short article/testimony from Zac Poonen. I think its a great encuragement and a proof of it is possible to leave the system of paid pastors.

[i]Financial support for workers: In the New Testament, the Lord's workers were supported financially in two ways: Some were supported by the gifts of believers, while others like Paul supported themselves. But in India, almost every Christian worker was either a salaried worker of a church or supported by gifts from believers. So we saw a great need for some workers in India to support themselves and thereby demonstrate the second method of support found in the New Testament - and thus restore the balance. So I decided to support myself and to serve the churches in India freely. I also decided that I would not receive any royalties for my books and audio-tapes that our church published. I encouraged my fellow-elders also to follow my example. The amazing miracle we have seen is that we now have more than 70 elders in the churches in India, who have been serving the Lord freely for many, many years. And some of them are serving in India's poorest villages.[/i]

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article31]New Testament pattern[/url]


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/29 17:47Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: balance

The word of God says a workman is worthy of his wages, and teachers are worthy of double honor, and not to muzzle the ox that treads out the corn and......etc. You get my drift.
So there is no doubt that scripturally there are some Levites--if you will--- who are to live off the free will offering of the temple as it were.
The problem I see is this 1) to many pulpits have minister in them who were never really called. According to a Gallop Poll done in the late 90's only 58% of minister believed that the bible was inerrant and divinely inspired and 13% didn't accept the virgin birth of Jesus the messiah. They tell me that that number has risen significally since than.
2)As I have said most pastors jobs are really to stand in the gap for thier flocks and to create an atmosphere of safty(boundry without stiffling the creative move of God in the midst), and to teach healthy doctrine inorder that the sheep can discern right from wrong not only in the great assemby but also in thier day to day fellowship/lives.

I can't go into some of the abuses I have seen from the pulpit but even that hasn't jaded my inderstanding as to the whole issue of support for full time ministers.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/29 21:22Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re: The Candlestick

I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm very encouraged by what's being shared.

If I can go back a ways, Robert W mentioned early on that some may need to gather together and seek God about "reestablishing a local church that is a true light in the communtiy."

And he said also, "The gates of hell will not prevail against a church in which the Lord is tending the candlestick."

I think we are entering days when we are going to see the Lord of the church bringing forth this "candlestick" type of church structure, that is, church as HE has intended it.

...Meaning that in each locale according as He determines, there shall be a Candlestick type of church shining forth the true Testimony of Jesus Christ into the darkness.

...That Candlestick in each place will "mind its own business," and be subject to the heavenly Headquarters alone, that is, Christ Himself at the Right hand of God. I believe, as we seek Him, He will bring us into a powerful awareness that the churches are HIS... and we are to walk in obedience doing only what He bids us do.

We must come to this deep awareness that the church whether locally or universally is ALL His own responsibility, and ours only as we are in union with Him, doing just that portion that He calls us and graces us to do.

I was thinking about the candlestick recently, and reread the passage in which God gave Moses its pattern. It was to be made of one solid piece of gold, "all it shall be one beaten work of pure gold" (Ex. 25.36).

It seemed so clear to me upon reading this that the kind of unity we see being pushed so often these days, with denominations coming together in an ecumenical kind of unity, yet still maintaining their denominational identity... this is not the candlestick God has in mind.

The candlestick was not a bunch of pieces of metal, somehow held together with wire, or whatever. It was one solid piece of pure gold. This is the kind of unity that must be the characteristic of the church God has in mind.

I believe we are going to see this, although it is going to take great shakings to bring it into being.

And great suffering. ...One solid piece of gold "of beaten work." There is cost involved, and suffering, in this kind of church coming forth.

I feel so stirred about this. I want to see this kind of church.

...I read of Paul ministering in the churches. Oh, the reverence he had as he walked among the churches, I suppose you could say with his shoes off. He knew deeply they were the Lord's churches, for His own holy purposes. He never considered them his own. He never tried to bring them under his own dominion. He was a servant to the churches, doing His part as God commanded and enabled, and ultimately leaving them to God's own care. God was well able to keep them Himself, with "the word of His grace."

He is the One who is responsible for the churches. There was never in the heart of God this hierarchy kind of thing church has become(and became very early on, actually).

I read in Frank Bartlemans' book on Azusa Street a quote by the Reformation historian D'Aubigne. He said, "The church was in the beginning a community of brethren, guided by a few of the brethren."

How beautiful. So simple. We have gone far away from this simplicity that is in Christ. May the Lord help us to return to it.

Thanks to the different ones who are sharing on this thread. May we all be encouraged to know God will yet have the desire of His heart.

AD





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Allan Halton

 2008/12/29 22:32Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I think Daryl raises a good point here. There is no doubt that the scripture teaches that those that labor in the Gospel should live of the Gospel (I Cor. 9). There are people that are not called serving and there are abuses.

The point I am trying to flush out is, does the one pastor type church pose an obstacle to shifting to an elder based church because of the full time support (often a salary and housing) of that one pastor? To what extent does today's salary package and home allowance type model compare to the New Testament?

Regardless, I read an article from the Southern Baptist Convention that mentioned that 50% of their present pastors will be out of ministry by 2020 due to age related issues. There are few replacements. So even the salary packages are not luring pastors.

Could this be God moving the churches back into an elder based model with genuine church life?




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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/29 22:46Profile









 Re:

Quote

"It seemed so clear to me upon reading this that the kind of unity we see being pushed so often these days, with denominations coming together in an ecumenical kind of unity, yet still maintaining their denominational identity... this is not the candlestick God has in mind."

Quote

"I believe we are going to see this, although it is going to take great shakings to bring it into being.
And great suffering. ...One solid piece of gold "of beaten work." There is cost involved, and suffering, in this kind of church coming forth.
I feel so stirred about this. I want to see this kind of church."

Amen brother. In order for this to occur we will have to lay down and abandon the established order, the Catholic model of "one man in charge." The Priest, the Pastor, the Minister. This is a model that goes back even to the "mystery religions." So, it looks like we are going to be starved into the right model. When we are hungry enough, when we are so thirsty that we are almost going to die, then we will gather where the water is, just as the deer panteth for the waterbrooks, so our souls will eventually longeth after Him.And we will seek Him in in a manner that is pleasing to Him, and He will, perhaps see us coming from a long way of and run to us.

 2008/12/29 23:22









 Re:

Hi brother Dohzman

It is interesting that the "muzzle the ox," that is often time quoted always seems to end at that sentence. This sentence is sandwiched in between two teachings. Paul spent time, in the previous chapter, establishing his right to eat meat as the idols they were sacrificed to did not exist. Yet, he would not exercise this right if it led his weaker brother into sin. In the beginning of chapter nine, he again establishes the right to be supported then he says ...1Co 9:15 But I have used none of these things, nor have I written these things that it should be done so to me; for it is good for me rather to die than that anyone nullify my glorying." Paul of course, had to share the Gospel, it was in his bones and if money somehow tainted that, then he would have none of that. We live in a day and age where money has tainted everything it seems, from tele-evangelists, to crooked pastors. It would seem like the perfect time for ministers of the Gospel to follow Paul's lead. Also in Scotland, we have a saying "Whoever pays the piper calls the tune." Can we really expect ministers to "bite the hand that feeds them?"

 2008/12/29 23:36
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The link I am looking into is the obstacle to genuine church life being so many full time pastors and leaders needing a source of income. I'll get the helmet.


I don't think this is necessarily so. It is not the income but the expectation of the 'pastor' role which narrows the possibility of the church hearing 'the word of His grace'. For many these two issues cannot be separated. The 'pastor' is 'economically sanctified' to a special 'office' in the church's life. If this is the perception then I think such 'economic sanctification' is counter productive.

As a young man I was inducted as full time pastor of a local church and one of the elders would often use the phrase 'economically sanctified'... meaning a paid pastor. :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/30 4:58Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I can't go into some of the abuses I have seen from the pulpit but even that hasn't jaded my inderstanding as to the whole issue of support for full time ministers.


Quote:
"Whoever pays the piper calls the tune."


I believe that it is a gospel ordinance, God has ordained, that those who preach the gospel should live of the gospel. Paul chose not to exercise this right but never imposed his own choices on any one else. In fact in his letter to Timothy he seems to be encouraging Timothy to accept such support.

The real question is 'how do you do it'. Does the church set a salary? If it does it will almost certainly want to set an agenda too. (As apollus writes in the quote above.) I recall encouraging saints in the church in evangelism and pastoral visiting. At the end of the service one man came to shake my hand at the door and said 'but Pastor, isn't that what we pay you for?' This is the problem that when people pay a salary they expect some accountability from the person receiving the salary; this accountability usually results in a job definition. As apollus writes 'the piper will think he has the right to call the tune'. So the payment is for 'successfully' doing a specific job, rather than being 'economically separated' to the work of the ministry. Notice I said 'the work of the ministry' not the 'office of the ministry'. ie the function not the role.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/30 5:08Profile





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