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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Amen Robert, the great curse i think we focus so much on this. Yes it is a great blessing to read and and see what God said through these men. It can be of highly benefit for our spiritual life. But the truth is Edwards was not raised up for us today, edwards was raised up for his generation and wesley and Luther and all the rest for their time.



I have read these men for a long time. But they are no substitute for hearing from God. in fact, I think it can be a sign of [i]backsliding[/i] but I'll get my helmet for that one. :-o (We try to glean from their devotional life instead of having our own, etc.)

In fairness I am borrowing from the message of Art Katz on 'Two Judaisms'. The truth is, many have nearly come to Rabbinic Judaism and don't know it. Are was big on what is 'good' and what is 'best'. He believed we needed to hear from God.

The issue is [i]authority[/i]. Who is responsible implies a question; who is in authority and how has that authority been delegated?

The Pharisees formed Rabbinic Judaism by taking the Book and rejecting God. This is a sobering truth because they would kill a person for saying or implying that, but it is exactly God's estimate and histories virdict of what they had done. Now many many Jews are atheists and even many of the practicioners don't believe in a real God.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/25 7:57Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
The Pharisees formed Rabbinic Judaism by taking the Book and rejecting God.




I think you can leave the helmet on :-)

This is powerful Robert, i think this is probably one of the greatest deceptions in Christendom when i think about it, I have probably not read as much as you have yet of these men, but i have noticed the more "good" stuff i read, as good and true as it is, it only gives a "stirr" for the moment, the times I have been changed, the times I have been able to lay away sin and self is the times God spoke directly to me.

I think if God does not speak directly to us, what makes our religion different from islam?

And basically simplified, there can never be a real relationship unless both part is active. Imagine a couple where the bridegroom never spoke to the bride except through letters and messages. That would be a dead relationship. we see this in the number of divorses and destroyed marriges, how many is because there have been a lack of communication? i dont know but i am assuming a great deal. How many is there that have departed from God because they will not listen or even try to sit still and listen to Him.

I remember Zac Poonen said most people pray like this and he give a picture.

Imagine someone phoning you and imminently start speaking and asking and saying things for ten fifteen minutes and then just hangs up, you dident get a chance to get one word in. So many people pray to God, they do all the speaking and God all the listening.

be still....

------------------
for meditation:

Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever."

the word stand can also be translated abide, and i am sure God does not meen a book. Many do not even own a bible, but they can hear God more clear then those with sixteen different translations and study bibles and the rest. Blessed be God

Quote:
Who is responsible implies a question; who is in authority and how has that authority been delegated?



Completley wrong in most churches if you ask me :-)

In my church we do not have a pastor, we have a set of elders that are resposible in the meetings to oversee. But they are not "higher" more like brethren, and the spirit is free to giva a word to whom so ever, or a psalm or a word from the book :-)

And i have been amassed how many times, one has Gotten up and gave his burden and word from the Lord and it turns out that after three hours (time is not a problem when the spirit is speaking)every single one that stood up to speak had been following the first message like a red line. And it is truly something to behold how the spirit can control a meeting and "speak forth something" to his church.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/25 8:18Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
In my church we do not have a pastor, we have a set of elders that are resposible in the meetings to oversee. But they are not "higher" more like brethren, and the spirit is free to giva a word to whom so ever, or a psalm or a word from the book And i have been amassed how many times, one has Gotten up and gave his burden and word from the Lord and it turns out that after three hours (time is not a problem when the spirit is speaking)every single one that stood up to speak had been following the first message like a red line. And it is truly something to behold how the spirit can control a meeting and "speak forth something" to his church.



May God grant this in all of the churches! What an awesome thing if this could be true everywhere. May God grant it in our circles again. Thanks for sharing this.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/25 8:51Profile









 Re: Who is NOT responsible....for where we are at...


One thing I want to add, is who is not responsible for the current state of affairs. There is a doctrine concerning "The angel of the Church of Ephesus" etc, or the messenger of a particular Church, as being a leader of that church, city, or geographical area. I assume this doctrine was derived from the first few chapters of Revelation, and the letters to the 7 churches, prefaced by, "And to the angel,of the church of Pergamos or "to the angel of the church of...."...[ " "angelos", greek translated "messenger or angel.]


These were evidently very important Words that our Lord wanted to convey, and if you notice there were 7 angels that were given a variety of tasks to perform, throughout the book of Revelation. These churches no longer exist, though perhaps a city or two does in this list. The WORD, however, given to these 7 churches DOES exist. This exchange is very,very important,and establishes doctrine and is CANON...universally accepted as the Word of God....Scripture. but in no way imply a Pope like figure has the last word, and is the main teacher and holder of the greatest anointing. This flies in the face of all the doctrine of PLURALITY....beginning from the 12....."You are all brethren, and have one Lord...even Christ.", to the letters written over and over "to the elders, or shepherds , [plural]...of the church of _______.



I understand that very popular bible teachers, including Zac Poonen, see this scripture as the basis of establishing the authority of a "super Apostle"...IE, One Man is given power over an area to establish and maintain a grip, or absolute authority over many, and perhaps a city or region. This is exactly what I see as the root of the Nicolaitan spirit, which the Lord hates, both in teaching and deeds.



This is precisely what John the Apostle speaks of in his 3rd letter of Diotrephes who "loves the pre-eminence" and did not receive the brethren.


I believe that there must, out of necessity be an Apostolic voice to BEGIN, or start a church; to set the church on it's pillars, but the Church is never, never ruled by one man.....NEVER.



To the Elders....that's plural, and equal...not a lead elder and a posse of sub-elders.......of the Church at [ a city...]..."do I write." To assume that one man is given power over many, is simply the doorway to Popism, and controlling heresy.



Yes, there is , or was, it seems an Apostolic succession, but trumping even that was the counsel of the Elders, or shepherds, IN EVERY SITUATION. These were commanded to be non-professionals, WORKING for a living, with their own hands.This is ANATHEMA for the clergy of today....the Pastor...or those in "ministry." They are indeed "hirelings", in general, and the recipient of the tithe, and the honors of the Priest Class. It is unbiblical. See Acts chapter 20.


There is no "MESSENGER" to a group of churches, but a community of shepherds, that love God's people more than themselves or their perceived ministries. There is no pre-eminence....and the modern notion of the one pulpit Pastor and the accompanying one man show would be utterly absurd to the early church, as IT IS in the persecuted Church of today.


The greatest destroyer of the true Church was the usurping of ambitious man over the unity of the meek and lowly Jesus, and the beating down of the Church to accept that we are pew dwellers, the epitome of our faith. The moves of the Spirit then descended into liturgy.....THE SERVICE! [ there is baptist liturgy too!....] The body then disintegrated in a partition...the Priest..[clergy..], and the lay..[everyone else..]



This is the spirit of the Pharisee, which is the Nicolaitan, which is despised by our Lord Jesus more than any, and was the brunt of His rebuke more than any.



"If we let Him Continue, the Roman's will come, and take away our place, and our nation!"....they then planned on how they should kill him.


This is the true spirit of much of the church, and it's leadership today. This very word I write is heresy unto them, for they love the pre-eminence, and to be supported by the Church, and the honors and power and prestige. It is Babylonian and Romish, but perhaps without a collar. It has destroyed the brotherhood, the equal love and honor, and has done more to destroy everything good in the Church.



This is primarily why our state of affairs is so grim. Our churches are dead, without life.


God has a remnant, and always has.

 2008/12/25 9:18









 Re:

Quote:
In my church we do not have a pastor, we have a set of elders that are resposible in the meetings to oversee. But they are not "higher" more like brethren, and the spirit is free to giva a word to whom so ever, or a psalm or a word from the book And i have been amassed how many times, one has Gotten up and gave his burden and word from the Lord and it turns out that after three hours (time is not a problem when the spirit is speaking)every single one that stood up to speak had been following the first message like a red line. And it is truly something to behold how the spirit can control a meeting and "speak forth something" to his church.




Glory !

 2008/12/25 9:21









 Re: Is it hard to speak Norwegian?...hmmhmm...



I'm moving to Norway....well hmmhmm, that's an encouragement. Let this freedom consume all, to where we can really love each other.

 2008/12/25 9:32
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:


I'm moving to Norway....well hmmhmm, that's an encouragement. Let this freedom consume all, to where we can really love each other.




youre welcome brother :-)

Although, even if we have this freedom, that in it self wont bring an automatic to a perfect church. Our church have issues just as any i guess.

here is a message Zac Poonen shared with our church this summer.

[url=http://www.spiren.org/media/bibelhelg08/080630-AaByggeEnNytestamentligMenighet.mp3]building a new testament church by Zac Poonen[/url]

You will learn some Norwegian to while listening ;-)


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/25 10:26Profile









 Re:

Hmmmmm writes....

"I think if God does not speak directly to us, what makes our religion different from islam?"

Brother Yun writes.......


"Jesus said that His sheep listen to His voice and the good shepherd recognizes and calls each one by name. I believe that God speaks to His children all the time. We just need to listen and obey. When we start to obey His voice, we see God's power and authority in us and operating through us.

Of course the main way that God speaks to His sheep is through the Bible. Nothing God says will ever contradict the Scriptures, nor will He ever add to them or take away from them. But I also belives that the Holy Spirit guides followers of Christ by directing them and guiding them daily. We see this happening in the ook of Acts. On one occasion the apostle Paul was "kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the Word in the province od Asia (Acts 16:6) only to recieve a vision of a man from Macedonia begging him to come and help (Acts16:9) On another occasion Paul proclaimed "And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me>" (Acts 20:22-23)

How was it that the Holy Spirit directed, compelled and warned Paul? Was it solely a result of reading the Scriptures? Surely Paul was in constant fellowship with the Father and heard His voice guiding him along the way. Isaiah prophesied that the day would come that the people of God would be guided by His voice" Whether you turn to the right or to the left, you ears will hear a voice behind you saying "This is the way, walk in it >" (Isa 30:21)

On numerous occasions, preachers in China have travelled to a remote mountainous area to visit a group of believers. Although nobody is told they are coming, when the preachers arrive, they often find the believers already gathered together and expecting them, sometimes even in the middle of the night! When asked how they knew the preachers were coming at that time, they reply "The Lord told us to get ready because you were coming at this time."

In other places the house church had problems when undercover agents came along to spy on the believers and to see if they could gather information that might be used against them later. The Christians prayed and asked God what they should do. The Lord told them to stop announcing the place and time of their meetings and instead just trust that the Holy Spirit would reveal the details to each person He wanted at the meeting.

On the day of the meeting, no one, except the leader knew where the church service would be held, or at what time, but one by one believers began to turn up, all having been told where to go while they were praying earlier that morning. This method is one way of making sure that only those people the Lord wanst to fellowship together actually do so. It also put an immediate end to the unwanted visits by the undercover agents.

The Bible is full of examples of God's people hearing and followng His voice. Listening is an integral part of having a relationship with someone. Can you imagine what kind of marriage it would be if a husband and wife never heard one another's voice? So it is for a child of God who has a relationship with His father."

There is nothing complicated about what Brother Yun just shared. I wonder how many of us would be able to find where and when a meeting was if we had to rely on receiving the information from the Lord? Do you have that kind of relationship?.........brother Frank

 2008/12/25 15:45









 Re:

I plan on reading this whole thread on my day off. This has been so encouraging and a matter that has always been on my heart. Great thread! :-)

 2008/12/25 15:53









 Re:

Quote:

Compton wrote:
Quote:
"Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth" Prob 17:24



As a young opinionated man becoming a father, it was a humbling and settling transformation when I realized that for someone who thought he could size up christendom, I was hardly prepared to raise three children. I find that there are many men who are ready to be promoted to high rank in the church who have neglected to execute the duties of home worship faithfully.

Quote:
We are so busy minding someone else's business that we so easily fail to do our own.



One thing that I am continually impressed with by life in general, is how hard it is to do even one thing well. I am impressed with people who can repair an automobile engine, or build an attractive patio, or plant a productive garden, or a write a good song. Every-time I meet someone who can do one thing well, I see there is always a measure of integrity in their character, even if this virtue is not easily evident on the surface. They may be even be greatly flawed in other ways, but nevertheless they have persevered enough to master an area of knowledge. I find conversing them on their respective subjects usually very instructive to my own character.

Yet, among all the different people I find who have mastered various things, I find the rarest person is one who has mastered themselves. This is a man who is gentle but sturdy, one who is wise but not proud, a man who is aware of his own limitations yet not lazy, and one who has traveled far ahead in his spiritual walk, but always seems to have patience to wait for those who are lagging behind him.

Now there is one more trait this type of man has. He is simple in his heart. He may have two doctorates and a Masters degree, or he may just know how to fix car engines, but he is a simple fellow. That's his secret of self mastery; sophisticated men are too busy mastering other topics to master themselves.

Forgive my bit of country philosophy here, but this is how I see Proverbs 17:24 being played out in my own experience. Many men want to be like John Wesley, but John Wesley wanted to be like the Moravians. Their spiritual service was to clean the filth off of their sailing ship, because "it did our proud hearts good". And the great learned scholar Wesley marveled over and coveted their peace with God.

I am days away from my 43rd birthday, and the sphere of influence I desire has never been smaller. It is a weighty a matter to look to the conversion of my own children. There are times when my ambitious heart grows restless, and I begin to look outside the borders of my home, perhaps in pursuit of a business opportunity, or perhaps even in response to some flattery to take a more visible role in church...but then I see I have underestimated the task at home and an eternal pathos sobers my dreaming imagination.

I am not a great man, but a small one entrusted with a great responsibility. If I cannot keep my eyes diligently on this one task for God until it is completed well, then I have not been faithful, and if I have not been faithful in the responsibility I have been given, then how can I rightfully move on to instruct others in their business for God? It is my goal to learn how to do one thing faithfully for God, and to do it honestly and diligently, knowing these children are more his then mine.

For this specific task, God has provided my soul many rich instructions, both through his Word, and through the Holy Spirit's comfort in many ongoing trials and triumphs. I believe that completing my task successfully will teach me everything he wants me to learn should he have another task for me in the future, or should he take me home.

There is a pleasure I sense from God in me lowering my eyes towards my task. His pleasure brings me a deep abiding peace, and helps me to live daily in his presence. It is a paradox, that my stillness mitigates the awful dread I once had of seeing him face to face when I was busying myself with so many issues I had taken on in an attempt to make peace with him.

Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.

Blessings,

MC



This was a rhema word for me. Thanks for sharing that, Compton.The Lord really spoke to my heart through this. As you can see I'm still catching up on this thread. :-)

 2008/12/25 17:05





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