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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

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Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
Sorry for back tracking but I believe this is pertinent to your whole discussion.... Brother Abe wrote way back.... Quote: The Lord gave me a verse in Psalm 23 a few years ago to comfort me when I was fearing that I might lose my salvation and perish in the end. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psa 23:6) Oh, that word "surely" became a precious promise to my weary soul in those dark days of despair. I rejoice in your testimony of how God spoke to you. Secondly...Have you considered that God spoke these very words to David for the same reason? Thirdly...what might this mean in terms of the doctrines we try to support? In Christ Jeff



It's comforting that a man of God like David needed precious promises like these to strengthen his Faith in God. How much more do I need these promises? Brethren, let us lay hold on these precious promises and exhort each other to trust in God to be the author and finisher of our Faith. May the Lord grant us an increasing Fear of God.

Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The fear of the Lord is to hate evil... it is to hate sinning against our beautiful precious Saviour.

The Fear of death and the fear of going to hell will not produce hatred towards sin. Rather, it produces sin... because we are not serving God by trusting in his redemption promises for His people. If we fear that we might end up on hell it proves that we presently do not have assurance nor are we presently trusting in the promises of God. This is a very serious matter.

I have some questions and exhortation for those who believe that a born again believer might end up in hell:

Do you have assurance that you will endure unto the end? Do you have assurance that God will save you and keep you in the fear of the LORD all the days of your life?

If you have the hope of eternal life that brings purity of heart(1jn 3:1-3), you must have assurance of these truths... for God has promised.

If you do not have assurance of these promises... then you need to examine yourself and see if you are in the Faith, because Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. (read Heb 11)

Quote:
Thirdly...what might this mean in terms of the doctrines we try to support?



I'm not sure how to answer this question, because there are many specific doctrines which we are commanded to teach and preach (specifically the whole counsel of God). We should support the whole counsel of God. Without Faith it is impossible to please God. There are many truths that we can try to support... however, it is vain and sinful if we do not trust in the promises of God.

-Abraham

EDIT: sentence structure and grammar check


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2009/1/1 20:33Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Abe_Juliot,

You said,


Quote:
If we fear that we might end up on hell it proves that we presently do not have assurance nor are we presently trusting in the promises of God.




The Apostle Paul wrote:


"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [i]take heed[/i] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [i]his[/i] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."


- Romans 11:20-22(KJV)




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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/1 21:32Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Abe_Juliot,

Sorry about the second post here,


About this, I don't understand:


"Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


[b]Why[/b] are we told to fear God there.



_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/1 21:44Profile









 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

In summary:

Conditional security- believe they must persevere to be saved.

Eternal security- believe they must be saved to persevere.


Old Joe

 2009/1/1 22:27
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

[Edit addition:

Quote:
The Apostle Paul wrote: "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." - Romans 11:20-22(KJV)



I'm not sure what you are implying with this scripture. I don't believe God is teaching us to Fear death. The context is rebuking pride and unbelief. Paul is exhorting us to Fear God becaue Salvation is of the Lord and not by the will and running of the carnal mind.

Edit end.]

I don't fear falling away nor do I fear that God will stop working in me both to will and do of His good pleasure. I fear God who is able cast my soul and body into hell. That is big difference. He is the one who holds me up and strengthens me by His gift of Faith and grace. I fear Him and I don't want to sin against my beautiful Savior. By the grace of God I no longer fear death nor do I fear that I might end up in Hell, ...because God has become my Salvation. I love him because he first loved me. Amen.

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2009/1/1 22:35Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Abe_Juliot,


I do not mean to imply anything. I am comparing your words here with what Paul the Apostle wrote.


I don't find any agreement with what you said and what he wrote.


You claimed that


Quote:
If we fear that we might end up on hell it proves that we presently do not have assurance nor are we presently trusting in the promises of God.




But Paul the Apostle wrote what he did there to people that he said [i]stood by faith[/i].


I believe your words are a contradiction to the scripture.



[i]Edited to correct spelling[/i]


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/1 22:45Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
"Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Why are we told to fear God there.



I would emphasis that we are to Fear displeasing God because we love Him and we don't want to hate our Holy Savior Jesus.

This is not the same as fear the displeasure of God because we don't want to get burned by the flames of Hell. It is good for sinner to shaken out of the comforts of their sin with the terrors of the wrath of God. But, the Child of God has a different motive when He takes heed to this warning. The Child of God wants to persevere in a life of Holiness and purity for the glory of God and for the love of the Spirit. Whereas the sinner only wants to preserve His carnal mind and escape the flames of hell as the Rich man did in Luke 16.

May our conversation stay in fields of rich edification. -Abraham

Edit: spell check


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Abraham Juliot

 2009/1/1 22:48Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again Abe_Juliot,


I think that our conversation should stay as close to what God has said and as far away from our opinion as possible.


You said before,


"Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell..."


I asked you then why Jesus told His followers to fear God.

Not why we think it is good. Why He said to.



[i]Edited to correct spelling[/i]


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/1 22:52Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
But Paul the Apostle wrote what he did there to people that he said stood by faith. I believe your words are a contradiction to the scripture.



There are many more warning like this one which are clearly directed towards believers. Warnings as well as promises are to be taken heed to. The Warnings are a means of God preserving those who are born of God. The Promises are a means of strengthening those who are born of God. True Faith (which worketh by love) takes heed to both gospel warnings and gospel promises. Let us take heed to the warning that God gives and let us take heed His promises.

Dear friend, trust in the promise of God and take heed to His warnings. Put your confidence in God for He is the author and finisher of our faith. Let no confidence in the sufficiency of your will and running. Amen dear brother? Can we find unity here.

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." (Jer 32:40)

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 Jn 5:18)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (Jn 10:27-29)

"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:37-39)

-Abraham

Edit: sentence structure


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Abraham Juliot

 2009/1/1 23:22Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
You said before, "Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell..." I asked you then why Jesus told His followers to fear God. Not why we think it is good. Why He said to.



One of the worst things about hell is not the flames or the torments. One of the worst things about hell is that you will forever be enslaved to a heart that hates God. You should fear displeasing the one whom is worthy of your love. Everlasting enslavement to Sin is the worst thing about hell and we should Fear sinning against God. The Fear of the LORD is to hate evil and depart from it. If you don't hate evil, you cannot depart from it. Fearing flames and death is not what God is asking for when He calls us to Fear Him.

George Whitefield said this, "Our sorrow and grief for sin, must not spring merely from a fear of wrath; for if we have no other ground but that, it proceeds from self-love, and not from any love to God; and if love to God is not the chief motive of your repentance, your repentance is in vain, and not to be esteemed true."(quoted from Whitefield Gold)

Charles Spurgeon said this, "We are also to preach the motives of repentance- that men may not repent from mere fear of Hell, but they must repent of sin itself. Every thief is sorry when he has to go to prison; every murderer is sorry when the noose is about his neck. The sinner must repent, not because of the punishment of sin, but because his sin is sin against a pardoning God, sin against a bleeding Savior, sin against a holy Law, sin against a tender gospel. The true penitent repents of sin against God, and he would do so even if there were no punishment. When he is forgiven, he repents of sin more than ever, for he sees more clearly than ever the wickedness of offending so gracious a God." (quoted from Spurgeon Gold)

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2009/1/1 23:46Profile





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