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This denies the Scripture that says in Acts 2.21: whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Hi Lysa, thanks for your post. What do you make of this verse,
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the "Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved".

It's the LORD that is adding and He adds those that should be saved, not by man's will.

What do you think?

 2008/12/31 18:14

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991



White_Stone wrote:
Dear Brother hmmhmm,

As Saints we must question but, as I see it, in a prescribed manner.

[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.[/font][/color][/size][/b]

[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]Revelations 2:2 . . . . and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars. . .[/font][/color][/size][/b]

Simply because Old Joe has not couched his 'questioning' in soft phrases does not mean his intent is anything but for the best for the questionee and the rest of us here.

At this point in this 'Ben Hur' of a thread, I can no longer keep track of who is who BUT I have gained much insight and reassurance.

Old Joe and I both are new here and if/when we question something/someone, that does not in any way diminish our right to question. I can see that there are very ruffled feathers here and for that I am sad. I do not believe, for one second that was done with malicious intent. Perhaps it may have been intended in a "righteous judgment" way. If any of these questions had been asked by a member of long standing they may not have been as provoking. This is similar to our President Elect going to great lengths to hide the information pertaining his 'Natural Born Citizen' status. Multiple lawyers are employed at great cost to block us from finding out, when simply showing the "true" Birth Certificate would stop all the questions. (If anyone does not know about the Natural Born issue PM me or Google)

It is not difficult. We give witness often, I confess Jesus is my Lord, I can do nothing good without Him. He is very God. He is the light of my life and I long to share this with others that they may also have this prize, I do not want to bury my talent. From what I have seen on this forum most feel the same way. That is one of the reasons I have stayed.

Kindest regards,
white stone

Well the words judgment and judgment are same in the english bible, but in the greek it is two different words. And we are called to try things, prophesy and doctrines and teachings.

But never do we judge another's salvation, this judgment alone is Gods. And judging righteous judgment are not same as this in the greek.

[i] Krisis - Heaven or Hell

There is a kind of judging that we are not called to do. The Greek word is krisis.

For not even the father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement [krisis] to the Son (John 5:22).

The ultimate determination of heaven and hell belongs to the Lord alone. We never krisis. We are forbidden to krisis.

Krites - The Judge of All

But you have come to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge [krites] of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23).

God is the judge of all. Yes, there are people who are called to judge, but God is the ultimate Judge of us all.

Hupo-Krites - Pharisees

If we are going to stand up and confront other people in the church about something being wrong, we had better make sure we are not guilty of the same thing, because that is another kind of judging we are forbidden to do.

Here the prefix hupo is added to krites, giving us the English word "hypocrites."

This is what Jesus meant when he said, Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye?

You hypocrite [hupokrites], first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Matthew 7:1-5).

We do not krites and we especially do not hupokrites.

Kritikos - To Discern

For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tellwhere the bone ends and where the marrow begins.

The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference.

Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins.

When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind.

We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish.


Judge not? What does the Bible say?

1. We never judge from our opinions.

2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh,or of the devil?"

3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.

4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.

6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.

7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit[/i]

[url=]Judge not[/url]


 2008/12/31 18:15Profile

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Dear DeepThinker,

My point for even getting into this mix was my first post which led to my post to you.

I will admit that I do not know everything (:-D) and boG summed it up nicely (Thanks boG!)...

boG wrote:
the problem is not that OSAS is false but that men have taught it in such a careless manner so as to convince men of a certainty of salvation as opposed to encouraging them in the hope of salvation

And because of this careless manner I personally cannot stand by and support the OSAS doctrine. Now, do I tear down the girls at jail because they believe they are saved? No, I do not! They do not even know how I feel. But I do encourage them to do the things they can, read and pray and draw closer to our Savior in relationship with Him.

Back to your post to me! I apologize for not making my point in my post to you more clear. I totally agree with the Scripture you gave - that the Lord adds daily to the church such as should be saved; but you didn't tell me what you thought of my post, like how convenient it is to always have an out for your belief or the OSAS belief and say, "Well, they truly didn't KNOW or LOVE the Lord.... is why they weren't saved." [And I still believe that conveniently believing that denies the Word in Acts 2.21 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."]

This is just my 2 cents but let me ask you this.... Why does God need an out? If you believe this and say God has saved them, then by-joe stand by your belief and believe that God has indeed saved them to the uttermost no matter if they supposedly "love" Him enough or not because only God can judge a person's heart of what is enough.


 2008/12/31 22:46Profile

Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California


In the midst of threads like this it is good to meditate on an encouraging exhortation that calls for immediate application. Let us walk with God by casting ourselves completely upon the mercy of God.

The seeds of every wickedness

(J. C. Ryle, "The Gospel of Mark" 1857)

"But Peter insisted emphatically, 'Even if I
have to die with You, I will never disown You!'
And all the others vowed the same." Mark 14:31

See how much ignorant self confidence may
sometimes be found in the hearts of Christians.
The apostle Peter could not think it possible that
he could ever deny his Lord. And he did not stand
alone in his confidence. The other disciples were
of the same opinion. "And all the others vowed
the same."

Yet what did all this confident boasting come to?

Twelve hours did not pass away before all the
disciples forsook our Lord and fled. Their loud
professions were all forgotten. The present
danger swept all their promises of fidelity clean
away. So little do we know how we shall act in
any particular position—until we are placed in it!

Let us learn to pray for humility. "Pride goes before
destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall."

There is far more wickedness in all our hearts,
than we know. We never can tell how far we might
fall—if once placed in temptation. There is no degree
of sin into which the greatest saint may not run—if he
is not held up by the grace of God, and if he does not
watch and pray.

The seeds of every wickedness lie hidden in
our hearts! They only need the convenient season
to spring forth into a mischievous vitality. "Let him
that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." "He
who trusts his own heart is a fool.'' Let our daily
prayer be, "Hold me up—and I shall be safe!"

Abraham Juliot

 2008/12/31 23:20Profile



rbanks wrote:
OK then, I am sorry for assuming that you were a brother because I really don't know you. I will be praying for you though and I really do hope you will be saved, if you are not.

I know that it will be terrible for you if you are being a hypocrite. You have surely written a lot Old_Joe and seem to know more than others on here. I sure do hope you realized, that to teach others, you will be judged more severely. I hope that you also realized that the same measure you use to others will come right back to you.

Attaboy that's how its done!!!

Everyone that posts here (me included) is attempting to teach at some level and ought to receive 'greater condemnation' than an average old Joe who just keeps to himself.

Old Joe

 2009/1/1 11:20

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


Sorry for back tracking but I believe this is pertinent to your whole discussion....

Brother Abe wrote way back....

The Lord gave me a verse in Psalm 23 a few years ago to comfort me when I was fearing that I might lose my salvation and perish in the end. "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psa 23:6) Oh, that word "surely" became a precious promise to my weary soul in those dark days of despair.

I rejoice in your testimony of how God spoke to you.

Secondly...Have you considered that God spoke these very words to David for the same reason?

Thirdly...what might this mean in terms of the doctrines we try to support?

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2009/1/1 11:22Profile



ChrisJD wrote:

May God bless you.


Do you not know that by this statement 2 John 9-11 makes you partaker of ALL the evil you think I am doing? With every post you make in attempting to prove my falsehood you bring greater condemnation on yourself. So with this notice, I will let you just keep on going...

You are tossed to and fro like a ship without an anchor: first it is condemnation, then apology, then condemnation, then God bless you, then condemnation.... then who knows what's next. Your instability is utterly amazing, yet you think you are going to persevere?

Matt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Old Joe

 2009/1/1 12:16

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida


[b][size=small][color=0033FF][font=Verdana]Everyone that posts here (me included) is attempting to teach at some level and ought to receive 'greater condemnation' than an average old Joe who just keeps to himself. [/font][/color][/size][/b]

[size=xx-small]Change is uncomfortable.[/size]
[size=x-small]Change of viewpoints is difficult.[/size]
[size=small]Change of beliefs the hardest to do.[/size]
[size=x-small]Messengers that carry the instruments of change are often attacked![/size]

Face it, people do not like change. Most men hate it when their wives rearrange the furniture. It is disturbing when someone close to you changes because you are forced to view them in a different light and that light reflects back on yourself and you must re-examine your own values.

The majority of people, once they establish a working set of values, do not practice self-examination unless it is forced upon them (this is where accidents are often blessings).

Old Joe never said an unkind word but he did provoke deep introspection. I believe this is what made this thread a mine field, for some a gold mine, for others landmines.

It is my pleasure to have participated in this adventure. Lord willing, in this coming new year we will all enjoy growing together for Jesus.

Kindest regards,
white stone


 2009/1/1 12:28Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA



The Lord Jesus told His followers to bless those that curse them(Mat 5:44, Luke 6:28).

I said this in regard to what you spoke against me before.

I do still wish that God would bless you.

I [b]did not[/b] ask that He would bless your actions here though.

After I first challeneged your words in this thread, I wrote to your privately, asking you to forgive me if I had wronged you in anyway. This is what I wrote to you:

"I wanted to ask you to please forgive me if during our recent discussions I have wronged you in any way. I know that on my part I have responded to you very sharply and pointedly.

I want you to know that I wish you no ill or bad feelings.

I hope that whatever wrong there may be between us on my part can be made right through the Lord Jesus.

I wish you love and peace and thank you for reading this,


I wanted to give you the opportunity to show me where I may have wronged you. I did not, and still do not trust that I am aware of all of the ways in which my own actions are wrong, either to others or before God(Acts 24:16).

Whatever you wish to continue to do to me here, I still wish that God will bless you Old_Joe.


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/1 12:32Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257



I wouldn’t worry about offending Old_Joe. He is a tough Old_Joe. I could say that he is very opinionated. He just picks out what he wants to talk about and then tries to get others to see what he wants them to see. Some things are hard to follow because he is all over the place like a loose cannon sometimes. Anyway, this is what I have gathered from this thread. If I am wrong about this Old_Joe, then I know you will let me know.

I could also say that he is not as sensitive to how he says things to others as you are. Some people are more sensitive than others. So please don’t let Old_Joe’s comments to you, bother you, but seek the Lord and trust in Him. The bible says in 1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I think we all could learn a lesson that we shouldn’t let everything that people write be taken to heart. The bible says that as his people, let no man teach you, because, we that are in the truth know the truth and do not need for man to teach us. It is the anointing within us that teaches us. We are not to let any one condemn us, but let the Lord convict us, and we are to walk in fellowship with God.

Grace to you all!

 2009/1/1 13:30Profile

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