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bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

Lysa we don't believe the say a prayer and recieve Jesus and you will be saved, we our talking of truly converted christians who have been convicted of their sin and repented and trusted jesus fully, i don't believe in the modern day preaching and say this prayer and your saved at all and to single eternal security people on that one is just not right, see the biggest problem with conditional security from most of the defenders of it they believe if we commit certain sins or continue in our sins without repentance that we can lose our salvation and my point is, when did everything depend on us to be saved, why is it our works now and not what Jesus did, so now we our saying and talking of a works salvation in which we must do something to inherit eternal life which is complete heresy. The only way we our justified is by the blood of Jesus christ and because of his righteousness, i have said that only way you could lose your salvation after being born again if it may be possible is if you lose your faith in Christ, but again we must agree that God gives us saving faith, god does the convicting, gives us the want to believe, god finishes the good work in us not us. Most conditional people our talking of a works salvation that depends on them obeying the holy spirit till the end, paul affirms in many scriptures that God will work and finish that to prove that his new covenant won't fail, exactly what that great verse in jeremiah does teach which was posted earlier. If we have to post the verses that you think our clarifying conditional security and we will try our best to give you a proper understanding of it.

 2008/12/31 4:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rbanks wrote:
It pains me to read this. Why would a brother condemn another brother?



Maybe you should explain exactly why you are certain we are both brothers.

Old Joe

 2008/12/31 8:25









 Re:

Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
Lysa we don't believe the say a prayer and recieve Jesus and you will be saved, we our talking of truly converted christians who have been convicted of their sin and repented and trusted jesus fully, i don't believe in the modern day preaching and say this prayer and your saved at all and to single eternal security people on that one is just not right, see the biggest problem with conditional security from most of the defenders of it they believe if we commit certain sins or continue in our sins without trepentance that we can lose our salvation and my point is that when did everything depend on us to be saved, why is it our works now and not what Jesus did, so now we our saying and talking of a works salvation in which we must do something to inherit eternal life which is complete heresy. The only way we our justified is by the bllod of Jesus christ and because of his righteousness, i have said that only way you could lose your salvation after being born again if it may be possible is if you lose your faith in Christ, but again we must agree that God gives us saving faith, god does the convicting, gives us the want to believe, god finishes the good work in us not us. MUst conditional people our talking of a works salvation that depends on them obeying the holy spirit till the end, paul affirms in many scriptures that God will work and finish that to prove that his new covenant won't fail, exactly what that great verse in jeremiah does teach which was posted earlier. If we have to post the verses that you think our clarifying conditional security and we will try our best to give you a proper understanding of it.



You hit the nail right on the head Bible1985. Well done!

Old Joe

 2008/12/31 8:29
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:
Quote:

rbanks wrote:
It pains me to read this. Why would a brother condemn another brother?



Maybe you should explain exactly why you are certain we are both brothers.

Old Joe



Unless you are referring to yourself you should not make such assumptions, you are not to judge anthers salvation, this judgment belongs to Jesus alone.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,



Judge not, that you be not judged —Matthew 7:1


Jesus’ instructions with regard to judging others is very simply put; He says, "Don’t." The average Christian is the most piercingly critical individual known. Criticism is one of the ordinary activities of people, but in the spiritual realm nothing is accomplished by it. The effect of criticism is the dividing up of the strengths of the one being criticized. The Holy Spirit is the only one in the proper position to criticize, and He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding. It is impossible to enter into fellowship with God when you are in a critical mood. Criticism serves to make you harsh, vindictive, and cruel, and leaves you with the soothing and flattering idea that you are somehow superior to others. Jesus says that as His disciple you should cultivate a temperament that is never critical. This will not happen quickly but must be developed over a span of time. You must constantly beware of anything that causes you to think of yourself as a superior person.

There is no escaping the penetrating search of my life by Jesus. If I see the little speck in your eye, it means that I have a plank of timber in my own (see Matthew 7:3-5 ). Every wrong thing that I see in you, God finds in me. Every time I judge, I condemn myself (see Romans 2:17-24 ). Stop having a measuring stick for other people. There is always at least one more fact, which we know nothing about, in every person’s situation. The first thing God does is to give us a thorough spiritual cleaning. After that, there is no possibility of pride remaining in us. I have never met a person I could despair of, or lose all hope for, after discerning what lies in me apart from the grace of God.

Chambers


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/31 9:54Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Quote:
You hit the nail right on the head Bible1985. Well done!


Actually, you completely missed the point. Though, I do agree with you, you hit a nail, but not [i]the[/i] nail. I am fairly sure we have defined well enough what our position is with conditional security and I see you haven't understood what we have said because you are still refuting some other arguments that even we have not believed ourselves.

In my studies I came upon these acronyms:

T - Total Depravity . . . . . . . . . .L - Limited Depravity
U - Unconditional Election . . . . .I - I elect God
L - Limited Atonement . . . . . . . L - Limitless Atonement
I - Irresistible Grace . . . . . . . . A - Arrestible Grace
P - Preservation of the Saints . .C - Carnal Security

LILAC is a false presumption which our stance of conditional security neither endorses nor defends. So if there is to be any "nail hitting" let it be the one we have believed and not your biased opinions; besides being of a critical spirit that is slander.

Quote:
the biggest problem with conditional security from most of the defenders of it they believe if we commit certain sins or continue in our sins without repentance that we can lose our salvation and my point is, when did everything depend on us to be saved, why is it our works now and not what Jesus did, so now we our saying and talking of a works salvation in which we must do something to inherit eternal life which is complete heresy.


Do you have evidence to verify your claim that "most of the defenders" believe what you have said? Or is it not rather "it is possible that there are some defenders" who are properly refuted by your argument?

As I have said before (I find myself having to repeat a lot here), do not confuse salvation with sanctification.

The following link is,
[url=http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/wesley.htm][b]Perseverance Of The Saints [/b]by John Wesley[/url]

[b]Description:[/b] This is reprinted from [i]Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology[/i], A. M. Hills (C. J. Kinne), 1931, Vol. II, pp. 266-281 . . . On this subject (conditional security) we shall use a somewhat modified argument of John Wesley, which is unanswerable, and further supplement it by arguments of our own.

[u]Here is an excerpt:[/u]
[b]VI.[/b] Those who 'see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ,' and have been 'made partakers of the Holy Ghost,' of the witness and fruits of the Spirit, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly. For thus saith the inspired writer to the Hebrews: 'It is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, if they shall fall away (and then fell away -- New Version) to renew them again to repentance seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame (Heb. 6:4-6). Must not every unprejudiced person see the expressions here used are so strong and clear, that they cannot, without gross and palpable wresting, be understood of any but true believers?

[b]1.[/b] They "were once enlightened," -- an expression familiar with the apostle Paul, and never applied by him to any but believers. So, "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation; the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward that believe" (Eph. 1:17-19). So again, "God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined into our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6). This is a light which no unbelievers have. They are utter strangers to such enlightening. "The God of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine unto them" (verse 4).

[b]2.[/b] "They had tasted of the heavenly gift (emphatically so-called), and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." So St. Peter likewise couples them together: "Be baptized for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38), whereby the love of God was shed abroad in their hearts, with all other fruits of the Spirit. Yea, it is remarkable that our Lord Himself, in His grand commission to St. Paul (to which the apostle probably alludes in these words) comprises all these three particulars: "I send thee to open their eyes, and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God (here contracted into that one expression, "they were enlightened"), that they may receive forgiveness of sins ("the heavenly gift") and "an inheritance among them that are sanctified" (Acts 26:18); which are made "partakers of the Holy Ghost," of all the sanctifying influences of the Spirit."

The expression, "They tasted of the heavenly gift," is taken from the Psalmist: "Taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). As if he had said, Be ye as assured of his love as of anything you see with your eyes; and let the assurance thereof be sweet to your soul as honey is to your tongue. And yet those who had been thus "enlightened," had "tasted" this "gift," and been thus "partakers of the Holy Ghost," so "fell away," that it was "impossible to renew them again to repentance."

[b]Objection:[/b] "But the Apostle only makes a supposition: 'If they shall fall away.' "

[b]Answer:[/b] "The Apostle makes no supposition at all. There is no 'if ' in the original. The words are [i]kai parapesontas[/i] -- that is, in plain English, 'It is impossible to renew again unto repentance, those who were once enlightened, "and have fallen away"; therefore they must perish everlastingly.' "

[b]Objection:[/b] "But if so, then farewell all my comfort!"

[b]Answer:[/b] "Then your comfort depends on a poor foundation. My comfort stands, not on any opinion, either that a believer can, or cannot fall away, not on the remembrance of anything wrought in me yesterday; but on what is today; on my present knowledge of God in Christ, reconciling me to Himself; on my now beholding the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ; walking in the light as He is in the light, and having fellowship with the Father and with the Son. My comfort is that through grace I now believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that His Spirit doth bear witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. I take comfort in this, and this only, that I see Jesus at the right hand of God; that I personally for myself, and not for another, have a hope full of immortality; that I feel the love of God shed abroad in my heart, being crucified to the world, and the world crucified to me. My rejoicing is this, the testimony of my conscience, that in simplicity and Godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God I have my conversation in this world.

Go and find, if you can, a more solid joy, a more blissful comfort, on this side of heaven. But this comfort is not shaken, be that opinion, true or false, whether the saints in general can, or cannot fall. If you take up with any other comfort short of this, you lean on the staff of a broken reed, which not only will not bear your weight, but will enter into your hand and pierce you.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/31 13:22Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re: you are not to judge ???

Dear Brother hmmhmm,

As Saints we must question but, as I see it, in a prescribed manner.

Quote:
[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.[/font][/color][/size][/b]



Quote:
[b][size=small][color=6600FF][font=Verdana]Revelations 2:2 . . . . and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars. . .[/font][/color][/size][/b]



Simply because Old Joe has not couched his 'questioning' in soft phrases does not mean his intent is anything but for the best for the questionee and the rest of us here.

At this point in this 'Ben Hur' of a thread, I can no longer keep track of who is who BUT I have gained much insight and reassurance.

Old Joe and I both are new here and if/when we question something/someone, that does not in any way diminish our right to question. I can see that there are very ruffled feathers here and for that I am sad. I do not believe, for one second that was done with malicious intent. Perhaps it may have been intended in a "righteous judgment" way. If any of these questions had been asked by a member of long standing they may not have been as provoking. This is similar to our President Elect going to great lengths to hide the information pertaining his 'Natural Born Citizen' status. Multiple lawyers are employed at great cost to block us from finding out, when simply showing the "true" Birth Certificate would stop all the questions. (If anyone does not know about the Natural Born issue PM me or Google)

It is not difficult. We give witness often, I confess Jesus is my Lord, I can do nothing good without Him. He is very God. He is the light of my life and I long to share this with others that they may also have this prize, I do not want to bury my talent. From what I have seen on this forum most feel the same way. That is one of the reasons I have stayed.

Kindest regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2008/12/31 13:24Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone,



I wanted to offer a few thoughts more here if I could.


About the passage in Jeremiah 32:40 and this topic in general:




I think that we need to be carefull in making absolute statements about things that we may not be able to reconcile ourselves, apart from in the exact language in the Bible(2Pet 1:20-21), especially if we insist that others hold to them.



I think also that we need to look to the words of the Lord Jesus and His Apostles for explanation of the things that were written before in the prophets and elsewhere, and for the words and understanding of the New Covenant.(John 17:6-8,20, Matthew 13:52).




So then, if Paul the Apostle was aware of the passage in Jeremiah, he also wrote the words in Romans 11:18-21.


Or if we read the next verse in Jeremiah, we also read Rev 3:14-19.




I think that we should be especially careful in considering the idea that we are free to suggest that the words and warnings of the Apostles can be taken in any way and to any persons [b]except in the way in which they were given[/b].


If they did not add anything else to them, can it be safe if we(1Cor 14:36)?







I have been off from work this week and so I have been taking some long walks in the morning. Every day I have been going the same way up and back. Yesturday as I was going back and came to a certain street, I noticed that a police car had pulled over to the side of the road and nearby a fire hydrant was on the ground and water was gushing out into the streets. I wondered if they were coming to fix it since it was so much water.


Today on the way home, a bit further up from that street, I noticed on the ground what looked like some children had been writting with chalk. Someone had written "Mt. Sinai", I think in at least two places. I thought that was interesting and kept going. As I came to that other street today I noticed a news truck nearby and some other large vehicles. Coming around the corner i was very surprised to see a city truck from the water department sunk halfway into the ground!

Appearantly the ground underneath it had collasped.


It was an amazing sight.




Fortunatley I asked the workers nearby and they said noone was hurt.





[i]EDIT(02 Jan 2009) There is a need for a correction to something written above: where it says that someone had written "Mt Sinai" on the ground, this is not correct. After going by this same area today, I realised that the person(s) had not written 'Mt.' as I had said, and [b]also[/b] they did not spell the other word 'Sinai' but something like 'Sianai' or something similar. I appologise for misrelating the details. I thought this was important to mention because it may be that the writting there had no reference to the Biblical mount Sinai as was suggested by what I had said. Also, it looks like they were able to remove the truck :)[/i]



_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/31 14:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Unless you are referring to yourself you should not make such assumptions, you are not to judge anthers salvation, this judgment belongs to Jesus alone.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,



Judge not, that you be not judged —Matthew 7:1


Jesus’ instructions with regard to judging others is very simply put; He says, "Don’t." The average Christian is the most piercingly critical individual known. Criticism is one of the ordinary activities of people, but in the spiritual realm nothing is accomplished by it. The effect of criticism is the dividing up of the strengths of the one being criticized. The Holy Spirit is the only one in the proper position to criticize, and He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding. It is impossible to enter into fellowship with God when you are in a critical mood. Criticism serves to make you harsh, vindictive, and cruel, and leaves you with the soothing and flattering idea that you are somehow superior to others. Jesus says that as His disciple you should cultivate a temperament that is never critical. This will not happen quickly but must be developed over a span of time. You must constantly beware of anything that causes you to think of yourself as a superior person.

There is no escaping the penetrating search of my life by Jesus. If I see the little speck in your eye, it means that I have a plank of timber in my own (see Matthew 7:3-5 ). Every wrong thing that I see in you, God finds in me. Every time I judge, I condemn myself (see Romans 2:17-24 ). Stop having a measuring stick for other people. There is always at least one more fact, which we know nothing about, in every person’s situation. The first thing God does is to give us a thorough spiritual cleaning. After that, there is no possibility of pride remaining in us. I have never met a person I could despair of, or lose all hope for, after discerning what lies in me apart from the grace of God.

Chambers



One is an abomination to be wrong on either side of this verse.

Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

You have emphasized part of the point I was making. If one is not allowed to judge whether someone doesn't have salvation, how are they to judge that someone does have it? His reference to us both as brothers is a judgment that both of us have salvation. At this point I don't believe he knows either of us well enough to make that determination.

To flippantly consider everyone as a brother is a greater error than to question someone's salvation. In the former case you coddle them to hell, in the latter case you might at least wake them up. The only ones who take offense at having their salvation questioned are those who do not have it.


Old Joe

 2008/12/31 15:12
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


Old_Joe,

About this,

"One is an abomination to be wrong on either side of this verse.

Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord."


and...


"His reference to us both as brothers is a judgment that both of us have salvation. At this point I don't believe he knows either of us well enough to make that determination."



In another thread, in answer to a question that someone asked about passages from the book of James, you said





Quote:
James 5:19-20 is dealing with the conversion (salvation) of sinners. It is in regards to one who belongs to the visible church, seemingly performing the works of God, yet not from a renewed principle in their heart, for which Joash is a good type. Under the instruction of Jehoiada, he rebuilt the temple (outward visible manifestations) while leaving the inside empty of its ornaments (dead in heart).





James begins those verses by saying,


[b] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth...[/b]


Do you mean to say that James was an abomination for saying that to [b]sinners[/b], as you called them?


This qoute above was taken from [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26561&forum=35&6]here[/url]



Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/31 17:33Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:


To flippantly consider everyone as a brother is a greater error than to question someone's salvation. In the former case you coddle them to hell, in the latter case you might at least wake them up. The only ones who take offense at having their salvation questioned are those who do not have it.


Old Joe



OK, so I call two certain individuals on SI brothers and I am flippantly considering everyone as a brother. Also, who is taking offense at having their salvation questioned?

OK then, I am sorry for assuming that you were a brother because I really don't know you. I will be praying for you though and I really do hope you will be saved, if you are not.

I know that it will be terrible for you if you are being a hypocrite. You have surely written a lot Old_Joe and seem to know more than others on here. I sure do hope you realized, that to teach others, you will be judged more severely. I hope that you also realized that the same measure you use to others will come right back to you.

Oh, enough said, because who am I to tell you anything, because you don't know me either.

I sure do hope their are a lot of true brothers and sisters on here that are praying for a genuine revival.

If there is anyone else on here who thinks I shouldn't call people on SI brothers please let me know.

Grace to all!

 2008/12/31 18:12Profile





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