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bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

thanks for that interpretation

 2008/12/30 19:39Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3393
East TN (for now)

 Re:

I agree totally with hmmhmm verses as it seems does everyone else!

But let me explain the effect of teaching people that by saying a prayer they are saved and they need do nothing else. I see the effects of this horrible and devilish teaching each and every week when I go into the jails and try to minister to women who are there for the 3rd, 4th, 6th, or 8th time that because they said a prayer when they were age 5, 10, or 15 that they are saved.

My next question to them is, "Have you ever lived for Jesus, walked with Him," and no is their answer but yet they have been told and taught that they are "saved" and going in the rapture. Woo hooo!

I don't know that they aren't but IF we began to take responsibility for teaching and discipling every person we led to the Lord, perhaps this would cut down on all this falsity.

My argument against OSAS is that those who believe and teach this doctrine have FAILED these people by not discipling them and just going for the "count."

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23:15


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Lisa

 2008/12/30 20:10Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3393
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Quote:
DeepThinker wrote:
You have to love the LORD to endure all things. The Annasis and Sapphira's didn't have a love for our LORD in their hearts. They were in it for gain. That is the distinction between those who are truly saved and those who are not.


Do you truly believe this? This makes no sense at all.

People who believe in OSAS but then say it doesn't work because they weren't really saved because ___(place your reason here)_____.

This denies the Scripture that says in Acts 2.21: whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


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Lisa

 2008/12/30 20:15Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Quote:
You did not offer any Scriptural explanation for how the position that New Covenant members can lose that status is reconciled with Jeremiah 32:40.


To those who fear God all of heaven shall bear them up and the Almighty himself shall secure them with cords of love and bonds of peace.
So your question is too narrow to properly speak of the root of this matter.

The proper question is this: why didn't the Lord put the fear of him in their hearts? Therein lies a mystery we shall not unravel.


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Jordan

 2008/12/30 20:22Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Lysa, your discernment against the doctrine of "praying that prayer" is good; for indeed that is a common error that has been birthed by, what I can only reason to be, a combining of OSAS and Pelagianism (decisionism). None-the-less, the problem is not that OSAS is false but that men have taught it in such a careless manner so as to convince men of a certainty of salvation as opposed to encouraging them in the hope of salvation.


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Jordan

 2008/12/30 20:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Old_Joe,


You said,

Quote:
Twice dead, they would suffer death of body, and were dead in spirit. Sounds like there is nothing godly there at all.




Those are your words.


Again, Jude did not say what you just said. Those are [b]your own words there[/b].




You said,


Quote:
Why were they twice dead? Because they didn't recognize they were ungodly.





I didn't read that in the passage Old_Joe, where does it say "because they didn't recognize they were ungodly"?



Again, you won't admit that you are ungodly, this proves you to be of the type whom Enoch Prophesied of. Christ will convince you of this fact when He returns with His saints, but by then it will be too late.....

Jude 14-15...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Old Joe

 2008/12/30 20:36
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brother Taylor,

I thought I would post at least 3 scriptures before that most wonderful verse 40. I as well as you and many others are so blessed by God with the new covenant.

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
Jer 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

I have thanked God a many of times for His fear in my heart. I know that the beginning of wisdom is to fear the Lord. It also says that the fear of the Lord is to depart from evil. I believe that we are kept by the power of God.

I believe with all my heart that Christ has saved me forever. I know that if his fear was not in my heart then I would have wander away from Him and already gone back into a life of sin. I don’t plan on loosing my salvation nor am I working for my salvation. I am diligently making my calling and election sure. I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. I am taking heed to the warnings of Jesus and the apostles. I am striving to please Him and keep his commandments.


2 Corinthians 5:9-11 (KJV) 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I pray, I mean I fear, I mean I pray that his fear will always be in my heart so that I will never depart from Him. I don’t trust in mine own heart lest I be a fool. When the bible tells me to abide in Him or to keep yourself in the love of God then His fear kicks and thank the Lord I take heed to this.

When the scripture says in Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV) 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I understand that if his fear was not in my heart and his spirit was not in me causing me to walk in his way then I would be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. He says for us to be filled with the spirit and to walk in the spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Brother, if he was not living in me making me a new creature and causing me to bring forth fruit of a Christian then I would not be one of His people. It is the fear of God that teaches me not to depart from the Lord. It is the fear of God that teaches me to not trust in myself or any other type of security other than abiding in Christ. It is also the fear of God that teaches me that God is no respecter of persons and that I can’t trust in the belief that I have eternal security no matter what but that I must only trust in Christ and his power to keep me out of sin and his ability in me to bring forth fruit pleasing unto God.

Finally I believe that He has saved me forever and I am looking forward to seeing Him on that day. So I believe that Christ living in me gives me eternal security but I also believe that it is also on the condition that I continually surrender my trust to his everlasting covenant and will for my life. I do not believe that believing in OSAS will get you into heaven but once you are saved by believing in Christ, then always believe in Christ and He will get you to heaven.

 2008/12/30 21:27Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
...the problem is not that OSAS is false but that men have taught it in such a careless manner so as to convince men of a certainty of salvation as opposed to encouraging them in the hope of salvation.



Amen.


_________________
TJ

 2008/12/30 21:51Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Old_Joe,

May God bless you.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/30 22:04Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:

Again, you won't admit that you are ungodly, this proves you to be of the type whom Enoch Prophesied of. Christ will convince you of this fact when He returns with His saints, but by then it will be too late.....

Jude 14-15...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Old Joe




It pains me to read this. Why would a brother condemn another brother? The scriptures teach us to speak the truth in Love.

Jesus died for the ungodly but he lives in the righteous. Jesus does not live in the unregenerate but in those who are born of God. He does not call us ungodly but we are called saints.

He was delivered for our offenses but raised again for our justification. We believe that he died for our sins and that we died with Him. He lives in us and makes us righteous. He does not live in the ungodly. He is coming back to exercise judgment upon the ungodly. This is what he is saying in the passage in Jude that you stated but he is coming back to be admired in his saints.

Romans 8:31-39 (KJV) 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are not to accuse our brother nor condemn our brother. The bible says that the accuser of the brethren is Satan.

 2008/12/30 23:03Profile





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