SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Old_Joe,


You said,


Quote:
Ah yes, Jude's warning is against those that are ONLY ungodly men. Keep going on this though and you will get to the full answer.




No, not only ungodly. He said they were twice dead also.

Old_Joe, what do you mean here, do you mean to go on through more of your words?


Twice dead, they would suffer death of body, and were dead in spirit. Sounds like there is nothing godly there at all.

Why were they twice dead? Because they didn't recognize they were ungodly.

"Christ died for the ungodly" are you ungodly? Or are you twice dead?

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Old_Joe, why should I believe anything that you say? I do not mean that in anyway disrespectfully. But why?



I have already come to expect that you will never believe anything I say.

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
The Bible says that [b]every word of God is pure[/b].

Please let me ask this as respectfully and gently as I can try to, are yours?


Nope. Are your words? How about your works, are they pure? How about your perseverance, is it pure? Let alone entirely pure, is it pure enough to squeak by?

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:

You said before this,



Quote:
Attempting to keep EVERLASTING life that has been given you, is nothing other than questioning the EVERLASTING nature of it.





But Jude says,

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

- Jude 1:21(KJV)



And so it does. Are you keeping yourself in the love of God? How do you know you have ever even been there?

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
You said,


Quote:
To say that the believer is the one doing the overcoming/persevering is to say that the believer's ungodly nature is what is causing them to persevere...





But John the Apostle does not use these words you have written(1Jn 5:18).



Let's dig into this one a little. It says "whosoever is born of God sinneth not", do you sin? Why or why not?

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:


And the Lord Jesus Christ does not use the words that you have written here either(Rev 2:26).




Actually, I will overcome, because of Christ's work in me. As you have pointed out, my own words and works aren't worth anything.

Yet you believe with your impure works and impure words you will overcome. How do you think that is even possible?

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:





The Lord Jesus said,





[b][color=660000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [i]whether[/i] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]


from John 7:16-18(KJV)



This is why I keep telling you that you are speaking of yourself in your own perseverance, and seeking your own glory.

Do you not understand the difference of being "worthy" and being "counted worthy"?

You wanted questions and now you got them. Please answer them all this time.

Old Joe

 2008/12/30 11:41
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

hey old joe this is not a question to cause dispute between me and you but to get an answer from what rbanks posted on those verses in hebrews that look like they teach conditional security, also their others like at the end of the book of james, i already got the answers for hebrews ch.6 and ch. 10 and also peter ch.2 and the branch being thrown in the fire one in john, blessings in the lord john.

 2008/12/30 12:30Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

bible1985,

I'm neither old nor Joe, but perhaps I can offer something that will help you.

Are you referring to this verse?

[i]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;[/i] (Hebrews 3:12-14)

First, in Ezekiel 36:26-27 we know that the Lord removes the old heart and gives a new heart to those whom he pleases - we call this regeneration. Ezekiel goes on to record that the Lord will [b]cause[/b] these same people to walk in his statutes.

However, in Hebrews, the author describes certain people's hearts as "evil". Yet, they are outwardly partaking of the covenant via the church meeting, Lord's supper, etc. The author is issuing a warning here, as he does other places in Hebrews.

In essence, just many of ethnic Isreal during the old covenant, you can partake of all of the outward benefits (Red Sea, water from the Rock, Manna), yet still have an evil heart of unbelief! Simply put, these people prove themselves to have never been regenerated - Ezekiel 36:26-27 has never happened to them. How do we know this? 1) They have an evil heart - whereas those in Ezekiel are given a new heart. 2) God causes those referred to Ezekiel to walk in His statutes - and the command to believe in Christ is one of His statutes.

Ultimately, we cannot see who is regenerate and who is not. Therefore, we are to exhort one another daily in the grace of God and to continue in the race. For if there is an unbeliever amongst us (God forbid), it may prove the means to his conversion.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/30 13:12Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Quote:
Attempting to keep EVERLASTING life that has been given you, is nothing other than questioning the EVERLASTING nature of it. You cannot keep it any more than I can keep it, all you can do is trust that Christ will keep you. That is why He said it clearly here:

"...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Denial of self means your ALL is in Him.


Um, so where is the disagreement? As far as I can tell this is exactly what I and others have said.

You did not ask whether "conditional" or "unconditional" be true but the motives behind accepting one and the other. I will repeat what I had written previously:

"Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?" Do you see: why do they fear they may "fall at last"? because there is danger of hoping in themselves and are therefore shut up all the more unto faith in Christ Jesus as the Saviour of our souls. As a believer in "conditional security" I also stand with you: "Denial of self means your ALL is in Him".

Therefore we ask, what is the motive behind "conditional security"? The condition cannot be satisfied by man of himself (as Christ said, "without me you can do nothing"), so the man must trust in the grace of God in Christ Jesus to save him.

Is this motive not answering your question? Or are you disappointed because it is the exact same answer you have given for "unconditional security"? As a believer in "conditional security" that is given from a conditional God through the condition that he sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins and that I am saved upon the condition of his grace alone through faith alone, and that I may fall foully and fall finally, I admit that every good thing within me is a good and perfect gift from God, including my salvation, my faith, my new heart, my new will, my new spirit, my righteousness, my justification, etc. -- for all these things are only to be found in Christ Jesus and not of myself. I stand because God upholds and sustains me. Yet, were I to return to my old ways, were I to trust in my flesh, etc., then I would not be in Christ, who is life eternal. Eternal life is not a gift in the sense we might receive a certificate but "this is eternal life, that we may know him, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent." Eternal life is the communion we partake, the peace we have with God, through the broken body and shed blood of our Savior that was offered up through the Holy Spirit unto the satisfaction of the holiness of God. And as such, eternal life is the relationship we have with the Father through the Son in the Holy Ghost; and this relationship is through faith. Faith may be made shipwreck. The Holy Spirit may be blasphemed. We may return again to the vomit and the mire.

[b]Hebrews 10
26.[/b] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[b]27. [/b] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[b]28.[/b] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[b]29. [/b] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, [color=CC0000]wherewith [b][u]he was[/u] [/b]sanctified[/color], an unholy thing, and [b]hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace[/b]?
[b]30. [/b] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[b]31.[/b] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Quote:
When Paul says that "Christ died for the ungodly", are you ungodly?


Indeed, I am ungodly, for in my flesh dwells no good thing. In my heart all I see is wickedness, for my heart is deceitfully wicked above all things. I was reading recently how this word used for deceitful is an adjective form of the verb which means to supplant or usurp, that is to say, as in the name Jacob. Which gives indications to the manner of war ensuing between the flesh and the spirit.
Yet, I will re-state my emphasis again: the love and faithfulness of God are "unconditional" in the condition that he loves the righteous & through Christ he has manifested his love towards all sinners and he has none-the-less bound the effects of his kindness through established conditions, even an everlasting covenant. For me, I believe this means God has "unconditionally", through the mentioned conditions, provided an initial salvation unto all men through Christ Jesus wherefore he calls all men everywhere unto repentance through faith in him. Which leads me back to the parables given by Jesus himself. Never once is salvation ever attributed or complimented as a reward for deeds of men, however, we see a perpetual commandment that those who do not work the works of righteousness shall be finally condemned and cast into outer darkness. To say again, the man who was forgiven of the "unpayable debt", was the King just joking when he forgave the man the whole debt? Were there strings attached? Indeed not, the King was true to his word, the man was pardoned and justified by the proclamation of the King.

[b]Matthew 18
32.[/b] "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
[b]33. [/b] `Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
[b]34.[/b] "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
[b]35.[/b] "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
And, again, the parable of the talent: "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

So then, let us ask a different question: what is our motivation for "conditional security" that acknowledges the verity of OSAS and that salvation may be neglected and slighted unto irreconcilable damnation? For the simple reason that both are present in the scriptures.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/30 14:56Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Old_Joe,


You said,

Quote:
Twice dead, they would suffer death of body, and were dead in spirit. Sounds like there is nothing godly there at all.




Those are your words.


Again, Jude did not say what you just said. Those are [b]your own words there[/b].




You said,


Quote:
Why were they twice dead? Because they didn't recognize they were ungodly.





I didn't read that in the passage Old_Joe, where does it say "because they didn't recognize they were ungodly"?



You said,


Quote:
I have already come to expect that you will never believe anything I say.




We are told that The Lord Jesus has the words of Life. And that the Lord Jesus prayed for those who would believe upon Him through the words of the Apostles(John 17:20).



You are here teaching the Bible [b]in a multitude of your own words[/b] and I am comparing what you say to the Bible.



I asked you why I should believe anything you say.


You asked concerning my words and works,


Quote:
Nope. Are your words? How about your works, are they pure? How about your perseverance, is it pure? Let alone entirely pure, is it pure enough to squeak by?




I am not here teaching doctrines with questions and a multitude of my own words. I am comparing what you say with what the scripture says.



If you want to know anything about me, or my words, or my works, you may examine them yourself, or ask someone else here, or ask the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and consult the Bible. He said that if I testify of myself, my testimony is not true.





You said,




Quote:
And so it does. Are you keeping yourself in the love of God? How do you know you have ever even been there?




You asked me this because I compared what you said here with what Jude wrote, first what you claimed:



Quote:
Attempting to keep EVERLASTING life that has been given you, is nothing other than questioning the EVERLASTING nature of it.





Now, what the Bible says,


"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."



I have put this here to compare what Old_Joe claims, with what Jude says(who also appeals to the words of the Apostles and of the Lord Jesus Christ(Jude 1:17).


Jude says... [i]Keep yourselves in the love of God[/i].


I do not find any of Old_Joe's claims there. Just his words.


I do not see where Jude asks or suggests any of those things that Old_Joe claimed.

We take Jude's words there to be inspired of God and profitable for doctrine.





Next, Old_Joe asked




Quote:
Let's dig into this one a little. It says "whosoever is born of God sinneth not", do you sin? Why or why not?





This was in response to my comparing what he claimed here with what John the apostle wrote, first what Old_Joe claimed:




Quote:
To say that the believer is the one doing the overcoming/persevering is to say that the believer's ungodly nature is what is causing them to persevere...





John the Apostle wrote that


[i]...he that is begotten of God keepeth himself[/i]


Again, I do not find what Old_Joe claimed in the words of the Apostle here.


I do not find that John, who we take to be inspired of God, used anything like the langange or reasoning and words that Old_Joe used.


I also suggested to compare his claims with what the Lord Jesus said in Rev 2:26.


And again, I find nothing in similarity there.




Next, Old_Joe claimed about me in particular



Quote:
Yet you believe with your impure works and impure words you will overcome. How do you think that is even possible?




What are you referring to. Where have I spoken or written these words Old_Joe?




And also,



Quote:
This is why I keep telling you that you are speaking of yourself in your own perseverance, and seeking your own glory.




This was in reference to my having qouted the Lord Jesus in John 7:16-18.


Where have I spoken of any of the things you are claiming. I have, as far as I can recall, only qouted to you the scriptures in response to your claims.


Please provide the qoutations from me that testify to your accusations.


Thank you,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/30 15:29Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

Scriptures for your consideration and meditation.

i have added emphasis where i think man has a part in salvation.

Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But [b]he who endures to the end[/b] will be saved.

Joh 15:6 [b]If[/b] anyone [b]does not abide[/b] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, [b]if you hold fast[/b] that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

2Ti 2:12 [b]If we endure[/b], We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, [b]to turn[/b] from the holy commandment delivered to them.


1Co 6:9 [b]Do you not know[/b] that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."
Exo 32:33 And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Rev 3:5 [b]He who overcomes[/b] shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.




_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/30 16:54Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Hmmhmm,

Everyone agrees with these Scriptures, as they are breathed out by God.

However, it is a question of who gives the strength to endure? Did not the Lord also say "apart for me you can do nothing"? (John 15)

The prophet Isaiah also says that the Lord has "done all of our works for us" (Isaiah 26:12).

We fully confess that all believers must persevere to the end to be saved, however, we also joyfully confess that is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure, and that He is the one who is preserving us and giving us the strength to persevere!

[b]If one New Covenant member ever finally turned away from God, it would make Jeremiah 32:40 a lie.[/b] I would be very interested in seeing someone who believes that one time regenerate, New Covenant members can eventually be lost reconcile their position with Jeremiah 32:40.

[i]And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, [b]that they shall not depart from me.[/b] [/i](Jeremiah 32:40)

When we exegete Scripture, we have to ask ourselves, "[i]does my conclusion harmonize with the rest of Scripture?[/i]" The passages to "endure" and "hold fast" perfectly harmonize with a view of God's preservation of His people. However, the view that New Covenant members can eventually lose that status is [b]irreconcilable[/b] with other passages of Scripture.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/30 18:13Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Hmmhmm,

The passages to "endure" and "hold fast" perfectly harmonize with a view of God's preservation of His people. However, the view that New Covenant members can eventually lose that status is [b]irreconcilable[/b] with other passages of Scripture.



Well i agree with you God gives us grace and mercy to be able to endure, but as one who is drowning and a saving hand throws you a rope you can chose to grab it or not. Hold fast and endure til safely in the saviors arms. He will never let go, but i disagree with you on this issue. If we never can lose salvation, it would not be necessary to encourage people like Jesus did, Paul and the other apostles to endure or hold fast seeing they are already safe and in no need to hold fast seeing they can never lose the grip any way.

But I respect your opinion brother, i see both Gods power and enabling grace to keep us and our own responsibility and free will and without any contradiction. The times i have a hard time understanding i just lift my heart and say oh you know Lord, we dont need understand all things. We need to believe them all that is there in scripture, otherwise it would be unbelief. And Gods word is so rich :-) one man said the more he read the less he understood. I think he was an honest man.

Gods ways are so above ours yet so simple, we do make it so hard. I just try belive what it says. When it says [b]you[/b]... get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die....

i believe that...

When it says God will give me a new heart I believe that.

If you wanna call it something i guess God and man in cooperation, as in any love relationship there are two parts, two wills and two loves in unity one....

God in me....


God night brethren :-) i will go to sleep, i leave you with a wise word from a wise man.


[i]we do not speak great things, we live them[/i]
M.M Felix


i read another interesting quote the other day , quoting is just a substitute for intellect....

:-P


Gods grace and mercy to all as you make your election sure. Why would i need to if it already was? ohhh sorry i couldent help myself :-)


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/30 18:41Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Brother,

You make an illogical leap in assuming that since God preserves men, it is needless for Him to encourage them to persevere. According to that reasoning, since God gives people a new heart and new desires, why even give them [b]any[/b] commands?

We have to understand that God has decided to work through means. The elect are brought to salvation through faith and repentance. Their faith is strengthened through the means of the visible representation of the gospel truths in the Lord's Supper. They persevere in that salvation by the means of abiding in that faith and repentance. However, the [b]root[/b] of the means (faith and repentance) is in God. Is it He who "works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philippians 2), however, we are still encouraged to walk as children of light.

You did not offer any Scriptural explanation for how the position that New Covenant members can lose that status is reconciled with Jeremiah 32:40.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/30 18:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My beliefs (which as you can tell, aren't OSAS) are not based out of motives of self-preservation, but out of times of biblical study, thinking, and prayer.



Do all us know what are motives are? Sometimes were blinded by them. (not implying anyone here is), sometimes we just don't know. Not everyone sits down and thinks why they are going to pursue something. There are so many factors to take into consideration because each heart, soul and mind are intricately different from one another. I suppose that is why we have judicial systems to find out the reasons and causes of why men and women do what they do or maybe even why they believe what they believe.
Quote:
My beliefs (which as you can tell, aren't OSAS) are not based out of motives of self-preservation, but out of times of biblical study, thinking, and prayer.

I remember that I was so adamantly against the OSAS, but I realize that throughout my life and the things that I have had to endure and overcome that I am His and I can't just do what I want. He has a keeping power within me that keeps me from going too far. It's like He is saying, "this far and no further" and I am flung back to where He wants me to be. We are at His loving mercies, because of the faith that He has installed into our harddrive. When you know Him, I mean really know Him, it's a difficult thing to get rid of God. It's like being in love, I mean really in love, you can't forget her or shake her. It takes perseverance and a lot of hell to erase her out of your heart. But you really have to hate her to do that.

Once You Are Saved, you are saved. There is not a man that can pluck you from the Masters hand. But he that endures to the end the same shall be saved. Thats what sets us aside from the rest of the world, we endure because He overcame the world and hath made us MORE than a conquerer.

You have to love the LORD to endure all things. The Annasis and Sapphira's didn't have a love for our LORD in their hearts. They were in it for gain. That is the distinction between those who are truly saved and those who are not. You have to love the LORD your God with ALL your heart. All motives and intents are exposed before a holy and just God. These two did not love God, they secretly connived a plan to get more, like Ican and his wedge of gold and a babylonish garment.

There are many that attend to lip service saying they are saved but are not. They have not the love of our LORD in their hearts they are in it for gain. If it touches their flesh they are gone and we will know that they were never for us but against us. We shall know them by their fruit.

 2008/12/30 19:28





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy