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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Motives behind Conditional/Eternal Security

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 Re:

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Old_Joe, you said,


Quote:
They are to 'fear' to bring about their sanctification, they are told to 'fear not' because they ARE justified.




Those are more of your words.


I did not ask you for them. I did ask Abe_Juliot what the Lord Jesus said.



So then as expected, you weren't really interested in learning the answer, just trying to cause trouble. Well, enjoy your fear, it will soon come upon you as an overwhelming flood.


Old Joe

 2009/1/2 14:45
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Old_Joe,


Quote:
So then as expected, you weren't really interested in learning the answer, just trying to cause trouble.




I'm very sorry that you feel this way. I did ask specifically, I think several times, to consider specifically what the Lord Jesus said.


I still wish for your best,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/2 15:21Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Chris,

[b]Romans 11:20-22[/b] - Yes, I agree those who manifest themselves as not having faith should fear death and hell. Paul says the branches were cut off because of unbelief. I agree, unbelievers should fear death and hell.

[b]1 Tim 4:16[/b] - It states to watch your life and doctrine closely. For by doing so, you will save both yourself and your hearers. Again, I agree, those who maintain wicked doctrines and wicked lives should fear death and hell. However, it says "take heed", the word "fear" is not in this verse. Paul instructs Timothy to take special care to maintain pure doctrine and living. I agree, we should all examine our doctrine and life. However, again, if they are not found ungodly, there is no Biblical precedent for fearing death and hell.

[b]James 1:13-16[/b] - James states not to be deceived about the nature of temptation. Nothing about fearing death and hell.

I understand that all of these verses state that those who maintain wicked doctrines and wicked lives should fear death and hell. I also understand that those who profess faith should take heed and examine their lives. However, if, upon searching the Scriptures, they find they do not manifest the things these passages warn against, but instead manifest genuine fruit and faith, there is no Scripture precedent that those believers should fear death and hell.

[b]As a follow up question[/b], can you point us to an example in the New Testament of a believer who feared death and hell? I see Peter talk about looking forward to an inheritance that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for us; I see Paul knowing to live in Christ and to die is gain; however, I can't find the fear of death and hell you speak of amongst genuine believers, much less can I find it encouraged. If one had a consistent fear of death and hell, it would mean they had a consistent uncertainty of their eternal state, which none of the Apostles or saints seem to be uncertain about in the Holy Scriptures.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/1/2 18:11Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Taylor,


About this,


"I can't find the fear of death and hell you speak of amongst genuine believers,..."


What exactly are you refering to, [b]that I spoke of[/b]?



Quote:
Jesus never told his disciples to fear death or fear hell. He said "Fear Him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




I have asked here several times what reason the Lord Jesus gave His disciples to fear God.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/2 20:20Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again Taylor,


About the passages in Romans, Timothy and James, I gave those here in response to your having said:


"If we do not find them to be true, then we should flee to Christ for salvation."


These passages were written to people who are called believers, and having salvation. I find in none of them an exhortation [b]to examine their lives to see if they were saved[/b]. They are not written to people who, as you put it, "maintain wicked doctrines and wicked lives."






_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/1/2 20:31Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1017
Germany NRW

 Re:

Gal 5:15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

This is no joke!

Brothers, calm down please, all of you, this one can't be won, you have long passed the bounds of beneficial discourse, just leave it.

:-(
_________________________________________________

 2009/1/2 20:38Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Abe wrote:


Quote:
I'm not sure how to answer this question, because there are many specific doctrines which we are commanded to teach and preach (specifically the whole counsel of God). We should support the whole counsel of God. Without Faith it is impossible to please God. There are many truths that we can try to support... however, it is vain and sinful if we do not trust in the promises of God.




Brother, I heard your testimony of how God proved to you that He speaks to those that are His. This is how we know the Holy Spirit's seal is with us.

As you stated above, it is impossible to please God without faith. And further more, if I might add to what you said, it is impossible to have a God given faith unless we hear the word of God. For all things begin with God.

Here is another promise given to the saints....
............................................................................
Proverb 1:
20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

..............................................................................

In this section of Scripture we find the source of our faith....
Again....verse 23


"...Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;

I will make my words known to you."


Brother Abe, do you hear the promise in this Scripture?

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2009/1/3 9:55Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

I've been thinking that a more apt title for this thread might have been "Motives behind creating a threads that instigate disputes between Conditonal/Eternal Security"

Maybe the creator of this thread was not aware of the ramifications of such at the very beginning, but alas, here it is. Behold the fruit.

How many times will we go around in this same circle, brethen? Don't you ever get tired of it? Don't you ever get weary of the vertigo? Why do we feel the incessant need to scrutinize each other's theological leanings to provoke confrontations in the schoolyard?

One of the blessed things about being fully convinced and at ease with your beliefs is the [i]rest[/i] we soon experience from trying to proselytize others in the flesh. Now, there's nothing wrong with discussing motives on why certain people lean a particular way theologically; the problem arises when we stop discussing motives and begin injecting our own exceptions and indignant comments - the ineluctable result of engaging in these kinds of "loaded" discussions.

May I be frank here? If we are going to discuss such a mature subject as the intracasies of eternal versus conditonal security - and the motives for believing upon either one - we ought to also be mature enough in behavior to not to fall into the sand trap around the green. Certain subjects are too mature for children to discuss properly, and this Cal/Arm Conditional/Unconditional stuff has proven to be such the topic again and again and again in this forum. What starts out as a tranquil game of golf on a clean fairway, eventually ends up with all the players in the sand pit, clubbing each other with their irons. Iron does not sharpen iron in this case; it injures. And it's an embarrassment to the spectators.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/1/3 10:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
I've been thinking that a more apt title for this thread might have been "Motives behind creating a threads that instigate disputes between Conditonal/Eternal Security"


Simply to see who has EVERLASTING life and who doesn't.

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Maybe the creator of this thread was not aware of the ramifications of such at the very beginning, but alas, here it is. Behold the fruit.


I didn't know what most people here believed, but I have a good idea now.

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
How many times will we go around in this same circle, brethen? Don't you ever get tired of it? Don't you ever get weary of the vertigo? Why do we feel the incessant need to scrutinize each other's theological leanings to provoke confrontations in the schoolyard?


I never get tired of labouring to bring EVERLASTING life.

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
One of the blessed things about being fully convinced and at ease with your beliefs is the [i]rest[/i] we soon experience from trying to proselytize others in the flesh. Now, there's nothing wrong with discussing motives on why certain people lean a particular way theologically; the problem arises when we stop discussing motives and begin injecting our own exceptions and indignant comments - the ineluctable result of engaging in these kinds of "loaded" discussions.




Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
May I be frank here?


No, you are Paul, normally I'm Frank. :-)

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
If we are going to discuss such a mature subject as the intracasies of eternal versus conditonal security - and the motives for believing upon either one - we ought to also be mature enough in behavior to not to fall into the sand trap around the green. Certain subjects are too mature for children to discuss properly, and this Cal/Arm Conditional/Unconditional stuff has proven to be such the topic again and again and again in this forum.


This is not a Cal/Arm debate, this is about having EVERLASTING life.

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
What starts out as a tranquil game of golf on a clean fairway, eventually ends up with all the players in the sand pit, clubbing each other with their irons. Iron does not sharpen iron in this case; it injures. And it's an embarrassment to the spectators.


Sometimes gospel work isn't pretty.

I am sure you have heard this MacArthur quote, "The largest mission field today is in the church". He didn't mean somebody else's church or somebody else's group. He meant everywhere that those who profess to be Christians are gathered, including here.

There are a bunch here whose beliefs prove they do not know whether they [i]have[/i] EVERLASTING life or not, but Christ came that we may KNOW that we HAVE [i]ETERNAL[/i] life. Hence the eternalness of our security.

The Bible divides us into only two groups, those who have EVERLASTING life and those who do not, is this then not worth the fight?

John 3:36 [i]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.[/i]


Old Joe

 2009/1/3 11:09
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Old_Joe,

Quote:
we ought to also be mature enough in behavior



This is the forrest where '[i]play the [u]ball[/u], not the man[/i]' gets lost.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/1/3 11:22Profile





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