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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : a question for a Calvinist

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whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ron,

Why doesn't the "them" in 2Peter2:1 refer to the "people" ( ie believers ) instead of as alleged, the false teachers? The following "themselves" would refer to the false teachers. Is there something in the Greek that would preclude that? At the risk of interpreting the passagethrough a system rather than as intended, that delineation seems to make sense.

 2008/12/11 16:09Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What is amazing is that one can have such a wonderful offer and refuse it. You are a good example, you have the offer of EVERLASTING life, but instead you have chosen interuptable life, temporary life, or a mere POSSIBILITY of having EVERLASTING life. Why would you do that?



er, excuse me?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 16:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:


What is amazing is that one can have such a wonderful offer and refuse it. You are a good example, you have the offer of EVERLASTING life, but instead you have chosen interuptable life, temporary life, or a mere POSSIBILITY of having EVERLASTING life. Why would you do that?

Old Joe



[i]... the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.[/i]



Not sure of your intent in quoting the verse.

Are you saying that the deeds of those who do not have EVERLASTING life are evil? Does this mean that everyone who believes that salvation can be lost hates the light, and refuses to come to the light because they are evil? If they are evil and hate the light, how on earth are they ever going to come to it?

Too many questions now....

Old Joe

 2008/12/11 16:37









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
What is amazing is that one can have such a wonderful offer and refuse it. You are a good example, you have the offer of EVERLASTING life, but instead you have chosen interuptable life, temporary life, or a mere POSSIBILITY of having EVERLASTING life. Why would you do that?



er, excuse me?



If you can lose your salvation, it is not very EVERLASTING is it?

Old Joe

 2008/12/11 16:40
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
A couple of follow up questions. Could you please identify from 2Peter2 why the false teachers are believers? Second, is the individual going to held liable by God for the sin of unbelief because they refuse to believe they are forgiven or because they reject Christ for who He claimed to be?


1. because the Lord had bought them, and if I were a Calvinist this would mean that they were 'elect'
2. at the risk of oversimplification, the latter.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 16:40Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If you can lose your salvation, it is not very EVERLASTING is it?


Is this me, personally, we are talking about?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 16:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
If you can lose your salvation, it is not very EVERLASTING is it?


Is this me, personally, we are talking about?



Sure, it always makes more sense when we get close to home.

If you are preaching that salvation can be lost, that obviously means you believe your salvation can be lost which means that you do not have EVERLASTING life.

Old Joe

 2008/12/11 16:48
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
There may be some over-simplification going on here. I'm sure you didn't mean this, but your post implies that the Calvinist views salvation as has happening automatically (without the use of means).


I know it but is any of the means my responsibility?


Quote:
Ultimately, both the Arminian and the Calvinist limit the atonement in some sense. The Arminian limits the atonement qualitatively, while the Calvinist limits it quantitatively. In other words, in the Arminian view, the atonement of Christ makes salvation possible for all men, while the Calvinist position actually secures salvation for some men.


I know that too, but the implications are not minor. If some were elected to salvation are some elected to perdition? I am utterly unable to believe in a God who would do this.


Quote:
However, we find in the Scriptures that God has "bought the church with his own blood" (Acts 20:28). And, the atonement actually secures the salvation of those who were, by God's glorious grace, were "ordained to everlasting life" (Acts 13:48). Therefore, we conclude that Christ did not purchase a possible reservoir of salvation for the entirety of mankind, but rather purchased the church, those who were predestined to adoption and redemption in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1).


The 'church' is the total complement of those who have received God's pardon. It is not a fixed number of souls specified in some fictitious decree.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 16:50Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If you are preaching that salvation can be lost, that obviously means you believe your salvation can be lost which means that you do not have EVERLASTING life.



So you think eternal life is just longer?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 16:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
If you are preaching that salvation can be lost, that obviously means you believe your salvation can be lost which means that you do not have EVERLASTING life.



So you think eternal life is just longer?



Sure, EVERLASTING life begins at salvation and it doesn't end. That's the EVERLASTING nature of it. If not according to John 17:3 one doesn't even know God or Jesus Christ whom he hath sent, and has no business preaching.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Old Joe

 2008/12/11 17:02





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