SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : a question for a Calvinist

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 Next Page )
PosterThread
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: a question for a Calvinist

Quote:
The knowledge of the Gospel is not the equivalent of "knowing" the Lord. It is contained in it, but it is not the whole of it in this context.


You should have looked up the greek words used in these verses for "know" and "knowledge" before you made this comment.


[Edit: this is not merely "knowing" the Lord, but much more knowing ([i]epignosis[/i]) the Lord and [b]Saviour[/b] Jesus Christ.]


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/10 16:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Fair enough. You asked for how Calvinistic interpreters would exegete this passage, and that was provided.


I really am genuinely disappointed with Gill's and Piper's answers. I had looked for thoughtful explanations but what I feel I am reading is verses which have been put through the mincer of a Calvinist dogma. I genuinely cannot believe that anyone would have come to these reasonings without a prior commitment to mainstream Calvinism.

I don't write this in anger but in genuine disappointment.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/10 17:09Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
There doesn't seem to be any room in 2Peter2 to describe the false teachers as ever having been believers.


I really don't believe that there is room for any interpretation other than the plainest one that these were false teachers who were denying the Lord that bought them.


Quote:
A believer would never be described as a sow or a dog. I find that the P of TULIP is not in any way affected by this passage.


The reason is that you have already made up your mind about the correctness of TULIP. What you are saying is 'I have made up my mind and must interpret this evidence in the light of my convictions'. You are applying previous conclusions to the data discoverable in this verse. What it needed is a willingness to include this verse in the data BEFORE the conclusions are made.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/10 17:15Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ps 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

For Jesus to ask means He had to die for the whole world. The Father gave the whole world to Jesus because He was crucified for all but would only be affective to those who believed.

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is Lord over all.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It seems clear from these scriptures that the only thing that could be true about limited atonement is in it's affect. The atonement is limited in the fact of only being able to benefit those who believe.

Jesus Christ owns this world because of his sacrifice that the Father Has given all things into His Hands. All power AND AUTHORITY Has been given to Jesus from the Father. He is coming back in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord because they did not believe.

The word of God is clear that Jesus himself having paid the price of blood on the cross for everyone but can only be effectual to those who believe.

The very reason that Jesus is in (2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:) is because He paid the price of redemption and owns this world. He is glorified in those that believe and will punish those who know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It makes no sense at all to punish people with everlasting destruction if there was no way they could know God or obey the gospel in the first place.

 2008/12/10 17:51Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

[b]Ron,[/b]

Regarding reading everything through a Calvinistic "mincer":

I would suggest that we are simply interpreting seemingly confusing verses in light of verses that aren't confusing at all - like "I lay down my life for my sheep". As we examine the rest of the Scriptures, there is plenty of evidence that the Lord propitiated for a certain group of people, and that those people will certainly be saved.

Working with the plain definition of "propitiation" and "atonement" - we find it impossible Christ could have made propitiation for people that are in hell. If Christ bore the wrath of God for someone, and God is satisfied with that payment, that sinner is now accepted before God. Of course, God has predestined means as well as ends. The means of repentance and faith being such, and the Lord will certainly bring those means to pass in all of his sheep.

So, although you claim that "plain reading" has to do with Christ buying sinners on the cross, the verse does not necessitate such a view, and I believe the rest of Scripture would contradict such an interpretation. Therefore, we must seek to offer a plausible view that is consistent with the rest of the Scripture.

May the Lord guide us both into truth, and show us our errors from Scripture if we are wrong.

With Care In Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/10 18:09Profile
TomasAnuran
Member



Joined: 2008/12/10
Posts: 2
France

 Re:

Re:
TaylorOtwell said:

"I would suggest that we are simply interpreting seemingly confusing verses in light of verses that aren't confusing at all".

There is nothing remotely confusing about 2PeterCh2v1 unless you don't want to believe it. Then of course it becomes very confusing and difficult for you.

And for all those who like to quote John 10:28 "...because you are not of my sheep" - you need to read to the end of the chapter where you will come across verses 37,38 where we find Jesus, speaking to those exact same Jews who he has just said were not of His sheep, explaining to them how they can become of His sheep.

 2008/12/10 18:47Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Welcome to the forums, Thomas.

Thank you for your comment, however, it doesn't help us much, as all I have to do is turn it around and claim that you are the one that doesn't want to "believe it". Of course, what this verse actually means is the topic of this discussion.

So, simply because one doesn't see it your way doesn't mean were trying to disregard the text. Hopefully all here have a genuine desire to know the truth of the Sctipture.

Grace to you,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/10 19:14Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: a question for a Calvinist

Quote:
Working with the plain definition of "propitiation" and "atonement"


Indeed it would depend on what we consider to be a plain definition of propitiation and atonement.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/10 20:34Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Because what I have written is long, I have made it available as a nicely formatted page, with an audio version as well. Go to, [url=http://theopenlife.blogspot.com/2008/12/new-covenant-and-2-peter-2.html]The New Covenant in 2 Peter 2[/url].

Philologos, I apologize I have not been able to respond sooner. I'm doing the 5am-1:30pm shift at work, which leaves little time with necessary duties included. Please accept my weak attempt to explain what better men have before attempted. If at any time I am forthright, it is the move of conviction and not of strife. With you, my brother, I may contend but I shall not be contentious. My prayer is to Christ, for the help of His Spirit who opens our minds to comprehend the scriptures.


Let us look first to the text,

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be [b]false teachers[/b] among you, [b]who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/b], even [b]denying the Lord that bought them[/b], and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

The so-called problem of 2 Peter 2 is found in the word 'bought' being applied to evident reprobates. This construct gives the appearance of an ineffectual atonement, one which neither successfully purchased the elect nor propitiated the Father. However, I believe the issue which seems at first to be a blot on the doctrines of grace is found at last to be a smear on the glasses of him who reads it, and like all scriptures is more easily understood with a view unobstructed by native presuppositions. May God by these words remove scales.

I take the purchase here mentioned to be covenantal and to deal with broader aspects of the New Covenant than the particular atonement for sin. By 'covenantal', one must understand that every covenant includes terms, together with promises of rewards or penalties, but not every covenant guarantees the moral means of fulfilling those terms. For instance, consider the Old Covenant made with the nation of Israel. This covenant was ten commandments written on stone tablets:

"He wrote upon [b]the tables[/b] the [b]words of the covenant, the ten commandments[/b]." - Exodus 34:28

"When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the [b]tables of the covenant[/b] which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
1And the LORD delivered unto me [b]two tables of stone[/b] written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the [b]tables of the covenant[/b]."
-Deuteronomy 9:9-11

The ten commandments received at Mount Sinai functioned together as the foundation document for the nation. Specifically, the covenant was an if/then agreement promising life to those who perfectly heeded its terms, and judgment to those who erred. What the ten commandments, as a covenant, did not provide was the moral impetus to fulfill the terms perfectly. For this reason, the law which was good in itself became a yoke and burden to the people upon which it rested.

"Now therefore, [b]if ye will obey my voice indeed[/b], and [b]keep my covenant[/b] [ten commandments], [b]then[/b] ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
-Exodus 19:4-6

In Galatians 4, Paul highlights the burden of the terms of the Old Covenant when he refers to the ten commandments in their covanental function, as "bondage" to Mount Sinai. It is important to note that he is not speaking here about the ceremonial law, though that too is dispensed as an obsoleted administration of the Old Covenant, but of the ten commandments themselves as a covenantal system. If this were not the case, his reference to Sinai would be irrelevant:

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under [b]the law[/b], do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had [b]two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman[/b]. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was [b]by promise[/b]. Which things are an [b]allegory[/b]: for [b]these are the two covenants[/b]; the one from the [b]mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage[/b], which is Agar. For this [b]Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia[/b], and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children." - Galatians 4:21-25

And so we see the ten commandments as a life and death covenant are a burden impossible to bear. They promise life to anyone who keeps them perfectly, but "all have sinned", and the "wages of sin are death." Because the law cannot remove sin nature, it offers no help to the already fallen man. Though the terms are clear, the moral will is not present to fulfill them. The promise is true, but the requirements are impossible for ones born of Adam.

With this understanding of covenantal terms and promises, we come to 2 Peter, and the New Covenant established by Christ's death. It is imperative to understand that there was more than one object to be accomplished in the crucifixion.
[1] The first object was the creation of a New Covenant with new terms.
[2] The second was the propitiation of God's justice for those, and only those, who would fulfill the terms.

First we shall deal with the object of creating a New Covenant with new terms. By his death and resurrection Christ [b]purchased the terms of the New Covenant[/b] for all the world, and in this sense He has the rightful place as sole "Savior of all the world, especially of them that believe." [1 Tim. 4:10] Which is to say, He is the only Savior held out, the only Snake lifted up, the only Way, Truth, and Life by which men are directed to come to the Father, and that His salvation is only apprehended through belief. Herein lies the essence of New Covenant terms. Those who would have life must cease from law-righteousness, accepting the atonement to provide through faith the imputed righteous of Christ to all who believe on Him.

These terms are illuminated by Christ Himself, particularly in the sign of the New Covenant,

"The Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took [b]bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, [b]Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you[/b]: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, [b]This cup is the new testament [covenant, GRK] in my blood[/b]: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

Whereas the Old Covenant said, "fulfill the ten commandments and you will have life," the New Covenant says, "believe on Christ, who fulfilled the law and bore its curses, and you shall have life." This belief is more than bare intellectual assent to the historical facts, but is likened by Jesus to "eating" the Substitute, that is, inwardly appropriating the Covenant Head.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, [b]Except ye eat[/b] the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, [b]ye have no life in you[b]. Whoso [b]eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day[/b]. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 [b]He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.[/b] 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so [b]he that eateth me, even he shall live by me[/b]. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: [b]he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever[/b]."

By faith one must partake of Christ's atonement; that is, one must inwardly receive his afflictions and sufferings under God's wrath to be a satisfactory means of life. One must eat of this broken body and spilled blood by trusting it to be a sufficient satisfaction for the sins of those who it atoned for, namely of all who will believe. So again there are clear terms in the New Covenant, and these terms could not have existed unless Christ was "broken" and "poured out."

This leaves the final question, in what sense does the New Covenant buy reprobates such as those described in 2 Peter 2? We glance at the text again, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be [b]false teachers[/b] among you, [b]who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/b], even [b]denying the Lord that bought them[/b], and bring upon themselves swift destruction." This purchase refers to some deliverance, such as the children of Israel were 'bought' from Egypt, and implies a due moral response which these are denying. Calling to mind the multitude who were lead through the Red Sea and yet perished in the wilderness, we remember that there are deliverances unto terms and promises, as well as unto life. The children of Israel were pictured escaping from utter hopelessness, to be saved at last only through perseverance in hope. They were delivered from bondage up to a decision, and their response would determine their fate.

This is to teach us that Christ's New Covenant holds out a great hope to the Jew and the Gentile. The son of Jacob has not kept the ten commandments, yet he could have faith in Christ if only he would. And the Gentiles who were formerly "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and [b]strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world[/b]" [Ephesians 2] are given access by faith in Christ to the very holy of holies. The whole world has been delivered from the impossibility of the personal righteousness required by the Law, up to the hope of imputed righteousness in Christ by faith. And like the wanderers in the wilderness, there are many now presented the means of escape by the gospel who will die in unbelief. The promised rest lies ahead of them, the Manna is offered. They should eat and live, if only they would take it. In this sense Peter says, verse 20, "It had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." They are ones with much light, who will receive greater stripes for their refusal of the terms. They are ones bought by Christ's death from utter hopelessness under the law, unto the promise of life by faith - the "way of righteousness" - who turn back from the light lest their deeds be exposed.

And so, my understanding is that 2 Peter 2 deals with false converts who were aware of the [b]terms[/b] of the New Covenant, made an outward profession, and yet forsook the offer of life given by the covenant. They did not fulfill the terms and so were not saved. That they were false converts is plain enough by the description of them. The least ambiguous text in 1 John says plainly that, "They [false professors] went out from us, but they were not of us; for [b]if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us[/b]: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that [b]they were not all of us[/b]." These heard the terms, "Eat and live, forgo and die," but chose for themselves the momentary dainties of the present world.

To add a final word, which is addresses in greater detail elsewhere, I would only mention that there was something else which occurred in the crucifixion. As Jesus was broken and poured out, sealing the New Covenant terms, he was also reconciling God to His Church. For these something more was won. By atoning for their sins, Christ purchased the right to regenerate the souls of sinners. By this work, His Spirit brings to life dead men, rebirthing their natures after the Spirit who bears them, and calling forth faith out of unbelief. By grace he gives the moral impetus by which men become willing to repent and believe on Christ.

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that [b]I will make a new covenant[/b] with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [b]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers[/b] in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; [b]which my covenant they brake[/b], although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But [b]this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel[/b]; After those days, saith the LORD, [b]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.[/b]" - Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, knowing [b]it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure[/b]." Philippians 2:12-13

"But [b]God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us[/b], Even when we were [b]dead in sins[/b], hath [b]quickened us together with Christ[/b], ([b]by grace ye are saved[/b];) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For [b]by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast[/b]. For we are his [b]workmanship, created in Christ Jesus[/b] unto good works, which God hath [b]before ordained[/b] that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:4-10

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, [b]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us[/b], by the [b]washing of regeneration[/b], and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being [b]justified by his grace[/b], we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:4-8

May God bless the reader with the joy of the gospel of grace.

With love in Christ,
-Michael:.

 2008/12/11 3:02Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Openlife
Thank you, and for the blog link.

I think you are concentrating on the Redemption: Accomplished and Applied concept. I accept this concept unreservedly. The issue remains however on the pattern of the 'application'. Some time ago I opened a thread on the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1212&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Red Heifer[/url] which, like most of these threads, eventually ran into the sand and disappeared. However this thread is still my position on the distinction between atonement achieved and atonement applied.

The nature of the application of the Atonement was always dependent upon 'confession of sin' and until the soul is brought to that place of acknowledgment the effect of the Atonement is held in prospect. The same truth was contained in the ceremony of the Red Heifer and in the fulfillment of these types in Christ's propitiatory sacrifice. If time were not an element the effect of that Atonement would operate automatically forwards and backwards and would have brought the consummation of the age at the moment He cried it is finished.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/11 4:21Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy