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TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
as there is a clear difference between the old covenant and new covenant salvation.



Hmm, I'm not so sure about this. Seems more like radical dispensationalism to me.

Believers (Old and New Covenant) are all justified by grace through faith in the Christ.

Could you provide Scriptural proof for this?

-- Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/9 16:57Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Justification is the same in both covenants but the New Covenant is the 'better' covenant based on better promises with a better mediator. Romans 5 has a few 'much more' passages which are the distinctives of the New Covenant.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/12/9 17:06Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

philologos:
>>>I am not confusing the Covenants but God Himself does not change. God's heart is to forgive and to cleanse... in that order.

Well I don't think I implied God himself changes. The Word however is very clear he changes the way he does things and certianly there is a huge change between the old covenant and the new covenant.

Old Covenant was replaced with a better covenant (Heb 7:22), that has better promises (Heb 8:6), that has a better priesthood (Heb 7:12), with a better hope (Heb 7:19).

The Spirit of life in Christ set the converted free from the law of sin (Rom 8:2), as the law was weak and couldn’t deliver (Rom 8:3). We that are converted are freed from all the things which they couldn't be freed from under the law (Act 13:39).

>>>but the whole weight of your posts leans towards a salvation that is based on righteousness rather than a salvation which first imputes and then imparts righteousness.

Not at all. I hold to a salvation that imputes and imparts righteousness at the same time. One that delivers people out of the bondage of the Romans 7 experience and sets them free from the bondage of committing sin.

And not only do I hold to it but I have by the grace of God experienced it.

>>>Justification is the same in both covenants but the New Covenant is the 'better' covenant based on better promises with a better mediator. Romans 5 has a few 'much more' passages which are the distinctives of the New Covenant.

While the legal standing of justification is the same under the new covenant as the old covenant, people under the old covenant were only justified and left in the Romans 7 experience and were not born again as people are now under the new covenant.


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/9 17:41Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

TaylorOtwell
>>>Hmm, I'm not so sure about this. Seems more like radical dispensationalism to me.
Believers (Old and New Covenant) are all justified by grace through faith in the Christ.

Well I am not a dispensationalist as far as being a pre-mill dispensationalist but I clearly believe in the dispensation of the old covenant and the dispensation of the new covenant.

>Could you provide Scriptural proof for this?

Let me just repost what I posted to our brother that is giving me Greek lessons.

Old Covenant was replaced with a better covenant (Heb 7:22), that has better promises (Heb 8:6), that has a better priesthood (Heb 7:12), with a better hope (Heb 7:19).

The Spirit of life in Christ set the converted free from the law of sin (Rom 8:2), as the law was weak and couldn’t deliver (Rom 8:3). We that are converted are freed from all the things which they couldn't be freed from under the law (Act 13:39).


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/9 17:48Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
While the legal standing of justification is the same under the new covenant as the old covenant, people under the old covenant were only justified and left in the Romans 7 experience and were not born again as people are now under the new covenant.



Most of what you have said I agree with in your posts. Where we differ is on the grounds of justification. I affirm that Romans systematically demonstrates the order in which salvation takes place. Clearly justification is dealt with first.

As we comprehend the riches of the finished work of the cross we must keep justification by faith front and center. If we shift into a performance based acceptance with God we are in great danger.
This is particularly true as we press towards perfection. Such tends to lead to constant introspection.

What complicates the matter is that so-called sins of the heart (as you alluded to a few times concerning hating a brother) are seen in our lives based on the most trivial of facts and biblical proof texts. This is exacerbated by an evangelistic approach that flushes out any trace of compromise in an attempt to show a sinner their sins.

Now, imagine trying to maintain a pure conscience once you have mastered the craft of flushing out sinners from behind every bush (as C.G. Finney would say). You could not hide from yourself nor your own critical eye and would ultimately become your own accuser in even the most trivial of affairs damning yourself to enemy of God status. This is the fertile ground upon which legalism and bondage takes root and ensnares its victims.

The consequences? When things go well and victory is on the right hand and the left a sense of acceptance with God based on that victory develops. The sad reality is, for many, this is the basis upon which their assurance rests. If they are in perfection- they feel as though God loves them; if they are in compromise, they believe God hates them.

This is why justification by faith must be preached as strongly as Paul preached it. To shift the PH level of the Gospel away from grace and towards law is to scald the minds and hearts of men with a misrepresentation of the New Covenant. RARELY have I found a minister that has justification and sanctification in their proper biblical balance.

And this is why I believe God has passed by many of preacher that prayed and fasted their whole life for Revival. God refused to authenticate their unbalanced and unbiblical version of the New Covenant with an out pouring of the Spirit.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/9 19:33Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

RobertW:
>>>But what does godly sorrow look like and what is the measure by which man can look on the outward and determine whether a person has come to 'godly' sorrow?

I think when a sinner feels godly sorrow they known it. They are sorry for there sins. It is not up to man to dictate what godly sorrow is for each person but we must advise those that we call to salvation that there must have sorrow for their sins.

>>>If I go by what I see I may preach repentance and possibly hell fire because certain individuals have not attained to my concept of what godly sorrow ought to look like. This is a terrible danger.

It is not our place to dictate how and what is sorry. People have different make ups one can cry profusely at the prayer bench and only have worldly sorrow. Another can be dry eyed and have deep godly sorrow. It is not for us to vet a persons godly sorrow it is for us to tell them that the Word of call requires that they are sorry after a godly sort for there sins.

>>>However, I insist that we allow God to be the judge as to what He requires as the fruits of repentance.

Amen!

>>>We have our 'list' but is it God's list?

My friend I have no list. I leave that up to God.

>>>I am still not convinced. I have no doctrine to defend other than to dismiss sinless perfection and salvation by sanctification.

I never use the term sinless perfection and it seems to mean something different for each person.

Here is what it says in FST in the glossary.

This definition is found on page 589.
"SINLESS PERFECTION: [also called PERFECTIONISM] a theological view that holds that a believer can 'arrive' at a state in which (1.) his walk in obedience and holiness is not dependant on the Grace of God, and that (2.) he no longer has the ability to sin. Finney rejected this view entirely."

I have a short article on Sinless Perfection. I like to use the term "free from sin" teaching. That is a Biblical term.

I also reject salvation by sanctification.

>>>The plain sense of the context is that in I John 1 is that the 'We' is 'Us'.

I have not had time to follow up on a proper explanation on that and will try with the help of the Lord to get back to you on that one Lord willing.

>>>He says precisely what He means.

Right that is what the Mormons say about baptism for the dead.

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

We both know there are lots of Scriptures that are not cut and dry and need to be interpenetrated.


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/9 20:41Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

RobertW:
>>>I affirm that Romans systematically demonstrates the order in which salvation takes place. Clearly justification is dealt with first.

Again I agree!

>>>If we shift into a performance based acceptance with God we are in great danger.

There should be no shifting just putting forth what the Word teaches. Fruit befiting for repentant, godly sorrow, repentance.

>>>You could not hide from yourself nor your own critical eye and would ultimately become your own accuser in even the most trivial of affairs damning yourself to enemy of God status.

I have never had this problem. I have a tender conscience but I don't give room for the accusations of the devil. So I am not really sure what you are talking about here. Please explain further.

>>>This is the fertile ground upon which legalism and bondage takes root and ensnares its victims.

Give me a definition of legalism please. I would hold that it is an over emphases of rules that can only be supported by "Bible principle".

Do this, don't do that, can't you read the signs kind of teaching.

And then worse yet being coming smug about all your good rules and casting a critical eye toward those that don't have all the "light and understanding" that you do. I reject this type of spirit.

>>>The sad reality is, for many, this is the basis upon which their assurance rests. If they are in perfection- they feel as though God loves them; if they are in compromise, they believe God hates them.

If we fall into compromise we should be concerned. Look at the many warnings in the Word for those that fall back. While our assurance shouldn't rest on the good works God works in us to will and to do we do need to be alarmed in our spirit when we grow lazy and cold toward the things of God.

>>>This is why justification by faith must be preached as strongly as Paul preached it. To shift the PH level of the Gospel away from grace and towards law is to scald the minds and hearts of men with a misrepresentation of the New Covenant.

I am all for the preaching of keeping the law but not the old covenant law the ministration of condemnation (2Cor 3:9). Let us hold Christians to the keeping of the new covenant perfect law of liberty and the two greatest commandments.


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/9 20:56Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Robert:You could not hide from yourself nor your own critical eye and would ultimately become your own accuser in even the most trivial of affairs damning yourself to enemy of God status.

Bob:I have never had this problem. I have a tender conscience but I don't give room for the accusations of the devil. So I am not really sure what you are talking about here. Please explain further.



There is a danger to becoming preoccupied with self-examination. There is also a danger that we lose sight of how God's still loves us in spite of our failures and sins. But (and I can say from experience) that constant evangelistic emphasis of exposing peoples shortcomings in preaching- coupled with hard preaching on God's judgment- leads to ultimate despair.

I am becoming more and more convinced that in our attempt to balance an easy-believism 'Gospel' we have in some circles shifted too far from God's grace and mercy. Surely there is an assurance that a child of God can rest in.

Warnings? I suppose I have been sure to memorize all of those (almost) and live in them; but the life I have lived has been an overshadow of death. Can I really know the true nature of God living in constant godly sorrow? The fact is any given preacher can expose an area of our lives that needs correction. As I recall, and unless I misunderstood, one minister said at the conference that if we did not have a devotion daily we were backslidden (to that effect). Can that be true? I didn't talk to my wife for 8 days when I was in the UK, but by e-mail when possible. Did that mean I did not love her or somehow my heart was turned from her?

You see, when men offer up the commandments of men as the laws of God (based on their so-called spiritual principals and matters of the heart, etc.) and couple [i]that[/i] with Christian perfection and then add the dreadful salvation by sanctification you end up with a misery of unfathomable proportions in the life of a believer. No joy. No peace. In fact, they had more peace as a sinner in many cases. Why? Because at least as a sinner they didn't have a steady dose of accusations about their shortcomings.

The truth is the Holy Spirit is supposed to be bringing the word of God to our hearts. But men have lost sight of this and take up the word of God as a machete to hack away at the Saints and sinners. But God intended for the word of His grace to be in the mouths of the people and the ministers speaking the heart of God- in the Spirit and nature of Christ. Yet men will seek to work the righteousness of God from their finite minds and prejudices. God help us. God save us from ourselves!

Legalism is simply anything that men put on other men in the name of God and apart from God's direction. It exists and thrives in atmospheres where men are not seeking to be utterly sensitive to the Holy Spirit when they speak- and with an eye on I Cor. 13. In their hands the word of God is the sword of men. The pharisees could prove a false doctrine from scripture; but what is Christ saying right now to the churches? What is He saying to me?

It is high time that we inquire of the Lord who walk in the midst of the lampstands. We need the Oracle's of God in our midst that speak into our lives and bring [u]LIFE[/u]! All of men's strategies and methods fail miserably trying to work out in us [i]what only a fresh word from God can do.[/i]


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/9 22:15Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I am all for the preaching of keeping the law but not the old covenant law the ministration of condemnation (2Cor 3:9). Let us hold Christians to the keeping of the new covenant perfect law of liberty and the two greatest commandments.



Yea, let us who [i]having begun in the Spirit[/i] know we cannot be made perfect by the flesh. Let us consider so as not to incur the anathema of Galatians 1. May we understand that this walk is spiritual and requires the ongoing empowerment of the Holy Spirit in a real and verifiable way.

Let us go on unto perfection, but not by constantly laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith towards God. Let us that have begun in the Spirit also walk in the Spirit. And in so doing we will not make void the Law, yea, we establish the law.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/9 22:30Profile
bobmutch
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 90


 Re:

RobertW:
>>>There is a danger to becoming preoccupied with self-examination. There is also a danger that we lose sight of how God's still loves us in spite of our failures and sins. But (and I can say from experience) that constant evangelistic emphasis of exposing peoples shortcomings in preaching- coupled with hard preaching on God's judgment- leads to ultimate despair.

Really Robert you see danger everywhere. Danger in self-examination, danger it telling people the requirements of salvation, danger in telling people they much have godly sorrow, danger of teaching people that fruits befitting of repentance are a Bible requirement, danger of proof texting salvation, danger in missing the life in the Spirit. Is there any thing you don't see a danger in.

How about the danger of not telling people what the Word of God says about the conditions of obtaining and retaining salvation.

You seem to be like Chicken Little who thinks the sky about to fall everywhere.

The Bible tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor 13:5).

I don't know Robert you seem to see boogie men every where. I am starting to wonder what kind of life experiences you have had. Have you seen a lot of this stuff going on?

>>>I am becoming more and more convinced that in our attempt to balance an easy-believism 'Gospel' we have in some circles shifted too far from God's grace and mercy.

Well everywhere I see people pushing easy-believism. I guess you must be being exposed to misuse.

>>>Can I really know the true nature of God living in constant godly sorrow?

I am not show who you are reading. Where did I say a person should live in constant godly sorrow. I said that godly sorrow is a condition to be saved. Not a condition one must live in to be saved. I think perhaps you are on a different page that I am on.


>>>As I recall, and unless I misunderstood, one minister said at the conference that if we did not have a devotion daily we were backslidden (to that effect).

Well that to total over-preach. Now we are talking about legelism, over-preaching, and some one behind a pulpit that shouldn't be there.

Who hasn't missed their daily devotions at some point.

>>>Can that be true? I didn't talk to my wife for 8 days when I was in the UK, but by e-mail when possible. Did that mean I did not love her or somehow my heart was turned from her?

LOL of course not but I do require me wife to call me twice a week when she goes to campmeeting.

What kind of a group you spending time with any way.

>>>You see, when men offer up the commandments of men as the laws of God (based on their so-called spiritual principals and matters of the heart, etc.) and couple that with Christian perfection and then add the dreadful salvation by sanctification you end up with a misery of unfathomable proportions in the life of a believer. No joy. No peace. In fact, they had more peace as a sinner in many cases. Why? Because at least as a sinner they didn't have a steady dose of accusations about their shortcomings.

Well I can tell you Robert that is not what I am involved in or ever have been.

>>>The truth is the Holy Spirit is supposed to be bringing the word of God to our hearts. But men have lost sight of this and take up the word of God as a machete to hack away at the Saints and sinners.

Shame on them.

>>>But God intended for the word of His grace to be in the mouths of the people and the ministers speaking the heart of God- in the Spirit and nature of Christ. Yet men will seek to work the righteousness of God from their finite minds and prejudices. God help us. God save us from ourselves!

It doesn't sound good where you are at.

>>>Legalism is simply anything that men put on other men in the name of God and apart from God's direction. It exists and thrives in atmospheres where men are not seeking to be utterly sensitive to the Holy Spirit when they speak- and with an eye on I Cor. 13. In their hands the word of God is the sword of men.

Sound like to me you are being beaten by Babels lords. Might be time to come up and be separate.


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Bob Mutch

 2008/12/9 23:10Profile





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