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BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

Koheleth wrote:
Quote:
And I also I have said that the "Lord's Day" is not Sunday or the first day of the week, but I did not say that it was the sabbath either. The Lord's day that John speaks of in Rev 1:9-10 is actually Nisan 14, the day that our Lord died, and scripture does in fact teach this. All you have to do is read the [b]scripture reference to John 1:9-10[/b] and you will see this.



John 1:9-10 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Not sure how this clears any of that up. No reference to the Lord's day in John 1. I tend to think that the Lord's day in Revelation 1 is what has always been called the Lord's day in Scripture from the beginning.



I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I didn't mean to write John 1:9-10, I was thinking OF John the writer of Rev 1:9-10, but I will fix this, it was early in the morning when I wrote that- I will rewrite what I MEANT to say that correct way.

 2008/12/5 15:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Koheleth wrote:
Quote:
This is a most troubling statement, and taken exactly as written is entire heresy. Just in case your point was improperly conveyed, can you please enlarge upon it.



Heresy? Meaning if one believed this they would not be a Christian? I do not think so. Keeping the Ten Commandments or believing they still apply will not keep anyone out of heaven.




Yes, I mean that if someone believes that “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil”, they are not a Christian.

Believing they still apply and stating that “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil” are worlds apart.

Do they still apply? Yes. Are you or anyone else able to fulfill them in their entirety? Absolutely not! To claim such a thing is to both deny the atonement and break the first and the ninth commandments at the same time. (refer to Job 40:8) If one believes they can keep the Ten Commandments in their entirety, they know nothing yet as they ought to know, and they are excluded from heaven along with their painted righteousness.

Even if one errantly believed they are now able to fulfill them in their entirety, what about the times in their past when they were unable to fulfill them? To actually be a “Christian”, who is it that absolutely must fulfill ALL the law of God on their behalf? Past, present and future?

If Christ is actually your Redeemer, your motivation to refrain from sin is not merely because something is a commandment, but because you simply do not want to heap any more sin on your Saviour. The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, whereas the motivating factor of the latter is out of love to your Saviour.


Old Joe

 2008/12/5 15:21
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:
Quote:

Koheleth wrote:
Quote:
This is a most troubling statement, and taken exactly as written is entire heresy. Just in case your point was improperly conveyed, can you please enlarge upon it.



Heresy? Meaning if one believed this they would not be a Christian? I do not think so. Keeping the Ten Commandments or believing they still apply will not keep anyone out of heaven.




Yes, I mean that if someone believes that “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil”, they are not a Christian.

Believing they still apply and stating that “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil” are worlds apart.

Do they still apply? Yes. Are you or anyone else able to fulfill them in their entirety? Absolutely not! To claim such a thing is to both deny the atonement and break the first and the ninth commandments at the same time. (refer to Job 40:8) If one believes they can keep the Ten Commandments in their entirety, they know nothing yet as they ought to know, and they are excluded from heaven along with their painted righteousness.

Even if one errantly believed they are now able to fulfill them in their entirety, what about the times in their past when they were unable to fulfill them? To actually be a “Christian”, who is it that absolutely must fulfill ALL the law of God on their behalf? Past, present and future?

If Christ is actually your Redeemer, your motivation to refrain from sin is not merely because something is a commandment, but because you simply do not want to heap any more sin on your Saviour. The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, whereas the motivating factor of the latter is out of love to your Saviour.


Old Joe



So according to your record Old Joe, I am NOT a Christian?


Tell me, what "IN" the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil? What type, what shadow?

Again, and what about John Baptist parents who kept "ALL the commandments of God and ordinances BLAMELESS" and were rigtheous before God. It did say they kept "ALL" the commandments of God.

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

Are we not to be conformed to his image?


Old Joe You said: "The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, [b]whereas the motivating factor of the latter is OUT OF LOVE TO YOUR SAVIOUR[/b]."

And how did the Saviour say to do that: John 14:15 "[color=CC0000]If ye love me; KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS[/color] "..

Old Joe, do you love Jesus? If you do, then Jesus said :"...KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"

This is not about self rightesouness-this is about OBEDIENCE because I love him.

He said if you love him TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" is one of his commandments.

 2008/12/5 15:51Profile
thomasm
Member



Joined: 2007/8/17
Posts: 116
Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

 Re:

i believe it is possible to keep the commandments (in the flesh) but without Christ we couldn't change the inside of the cup. That why Jesus called the Pharisees white washed tombs, or clean on the outside, but inside full of dead mans bones.
Paul even said " as for legalistic righteousness,he was faultless"Phil.:3vers. 4-6
But that was self righteousness, and he considered it "dung" of tossed aside, to know the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. The Law was never meant to bring Godliness, it was a picture of what righteousness would look like, but it didn't produce true righteousness, which is Christ himself dwelling in us, which is all Love joy and peace, which is above the law because perfect love does no harm.

Love in Christ tom


_________________
Tom weighill

 2008/12/5 16:00Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Blazed and Koheleth...

Quote:
You are sounding a little demanding here, chris, but maybe I am misreading you. Can you tell us what your motivation is for asking?


My motivation here is TRUTH. I hoped that it would be obvious that there aren't any ulterior motives in this. I certainly disagree with your opinion in the matter; however, I am certainly open to discussion about this and the possibility of being wrong. Personally, I don't work on Saturday or Sunday. I remember the finished work of God (on both the original 7th day...and the finished work at Calvary) EVERY single day of my life. Yet this goes much farther. It seems that there are some who might declare that we are to submit to a certain set of obligations in regard to the day. Have you ever met any of those who refuse to run, walk, cook or clean on that day? I have. A couple of them are willing to question everything -- just like the Pharisees (like our brother pointed out) who are willing to connect picking grain to eat on the Sabbath with those farmers who pick grain for a living.

Yet there are professions that work and operate on the Sabbath (whether someone calls it Saturday or Sunday or another day). Doctors "work" on such days. Is that sinful? You can say that it is -- but I suspect that you wouldn't wait until Sunday or Monday to take your hurting child or spouse to the hospital (and "cause" someone to "break a commandment"). How many things do we partake in on the "Sabbath" that benefit from someone else working on that day? Do we read the newspaper? Well, someone worked on Saturday or Sunday to get it to you! Do we go to the store? Well, someone is working on that day for us. Do you see what I mean here? Was this command because God blessed a particular day (which, according to Jewish belief of the Old Testament, is from sunset to sunset, rather than midnight to midnight) -- or was this meant to cause rememberance of the original sabbath (the completion of God's work in creation)?

You might say that there are "evidences" that the Sabbath today ("Yom Shabbat") is the same as the Sabbath of the Old Testament -- but that is a stretch. There is quite a bit of evidence that says otherwise, and you can find it by simply googling it or speaking with a scholar of Hebrew customs and culture. There is question as to which day of the week actually makes a "Sabbath" -- because the "months" of the ancient Hebrew calendar do not coincide with the modern Hebrew calendar, and those days do not constitute a 365 day calendar year anyway. Regardless, you should at least be open to the possibility that the original 7th day might not be pinpointed as "Saturday" today.

Anyway, the point of this is to find the truth. However, I would also like to hear just what those who supposedly observe the Sabbath feel is required on that day.

Is it just a day to not work and remember the day that God was finished from creation?

Or is there something more? What is the extent of "work" that can be accomplished on that day? Can I go jogging? Can I ride my bicycle? Can I eat at McDonalds? Can I go shopping?

You might think that my questions are "nitpicking" -- but they are legitimate questions to those who feel that we are bound to the letter of the Law rather than the root of it. There were NO REQUIREMENTS for the Sabbath mentioned in Scripture UNTIL the Israelites were wandering through the desert. In fact, the first time the word "Sabbath" even appears in the Scriptures is in Exodus 16:23, instructing people to not COOK on the Sabbath!

As far as the 10 Commandments are concerned: Didn't Jesus speak about this? Jesus, speaking to Jewish observers of the Law, said:
Quote:

Matthew 5:17-48 (King James Version)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The question is whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Law (verse 17, 18).

It might be helpful to remember just what God sanctified on the 7th day. Genesis 2:3 says: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." God did this BEFORE there was a "calendar" (let alone a Hebrew or Greco-Roman calendar). In other words, God did not sanctify SATURDAY or SUNDAY. He sanctified the [u]original[/u] 7th day -- the day He later asked us to remember.

Look, I [u]remember[/u] the original Sabbath each and every day. I realize that God's work was finished by that day, and that He blessed the day. I just don't know if the present Friday night-Saturday night is really that day. I also don't know what it would be that God would require of us regarding that day. Does God want us to STOP all forms of work? Exodus 16, which predates the 10 Commandments by four chapters and of which Blazed has quoted several times, actually commands individuals to NOT COOK (by preparing food the day before). The Ten Commandments simply tell us to "remember" the Sabbath day and to keep it holy by not working or allowing anyone to work for us (so much for buying a pizza on that day)! In Numbers 32-36, the Israelites were commanded to (and did) stone a man who simply went out gathering sticks! OUCH! Jeremiah 17 even forbids carrying a load to your house or out of your house on the Sabbath. So much for taking out the trash!

Yet the modern association with those who supposedly "keep the Sabbath" tends to be divided between those who feel that they are keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, those who keep it on Sunday, and those who feel that everyday is a Sabbath rest (and that we are no longer bound by its specific laws, rules and regulations). Those who claim to "keep" the Sabbath (whether on Saturday or Sunday) often point to it as the day that they fellowship with the local Church. Yet this isn't even REMOTELY scriptural! In fact, there are verses in the Old Testament that say we are supposed to avoid meeting others on the Sabbath!

How was the Sabbath approached in the New Testament? Jesus healed on the Sabbath and seemed to give permission to haul your son or ox out of a pit (Luke 14:5-7). Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath, justified a man who carried his mat after being healed (John 5:8-10) and acknowledged that it was okay to circumcize a child (in order to keep the Law) on the Sabbath day (John 7:21-23). Jesus even justified his disciples picking grain on the Sabbath -- even associating the particular laws regarding Sabbath regulations with laws that would have forbid David and his men from eating consecrated bread (Mark 2:23-28). Jesus told them that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and explained that He was "Lord" (capital "L") of the Sabbath.

Yes, the disciples preached at the Temple and synagogues on the Sabbath, but it never says that they did this out of regulation or compulsion. It just so happened that you have a gathered, captive audience on that day.

That being said, I think that most Americans work on Monday-Friday. We have BOTH Saturday and Sunday off. We are free to rest and remember the finished creation on that day. Yet the argument has now deviated to which day we should attend "worship services." The Saturday folks are pointing fingers at the Sunday folks (and vice versa) -- when the New Testament clearly shows that early believers met EVERY day. Anyway, here are a few passages to consider in this debate:
Quote:

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 KJV[/b]

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NIV[/b]

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NASB[/b]

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day --
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

...and, regarding a "living" Word of God that lays the blade to the root of matters...
Quote:

[b]Hebrews 4:6-13 KJV[/b]

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


[b]Hebrews 4:6-13 NIV[/b]

6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


[b]Hebrews 4:6-13 NASB[/b]

6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

If possible, I would like someone to make a list regarding what they think is required of us on a "Sabbath." I already know that people don't believe in working on that day (although the definition of "work" varies from person to person). On that day, we are supposed to "remember" the Lord's completion of His work (the original "Sabbath").

Is there anything else?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/5 16:05Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Hi Chris! Sorry I left out the extra letters . . . hope that is alright. :-?

Well, on to the dialogue. Thanks for your comments!

Quote:
I certainly disagree with your opinion in the matter



I am not sure you know what my opinion is. Can you state it for me, please?

Quote:
Doctors "work" on such days. Is that sinful? You can say that it is



I have never implied such, and I think Jesus' example of doing good and healing on the Sabbath is the only answer needed here.

Quote:
How many things do we partake in on the "Sabbath" that benefit from someone else working on that day? Do we read the newspaper? Well, someone worked on Saturday or Sunday to get it to you! Do we go to the store? Well, someone is working on that day for us.



Those who observe the Sabbath because they believe in following the commandment do not go to a store or read a newspaper that was printed that day, because that would make them a hypocrite.

Quote:
You might say that there are "evidences" that the Sabbath today ("Yom Shabbat") is the same as the Sabbath of the Old Testament -- but that is a stretch. There is quite a bit of evidence that says otherwise, and you can find it by simply googling it or speaking with a scholar of Hebrew customs and culture. There is question as to which day of the week actually makes a "Sabbath" -- because the "months" of the ancient Hebrew calendar do not coincide with the modern Hebrew calendar, and those days do not constitute a 365 day calendar year anyway. Regardless, you should at least be open to the possibility that the original 7th day might not be pinpointed as "Saturday" today.



This is a question of whether today's 7th day is the same as the 7th day in the time of Moses or Bible times. This fact is well established from many sources, both secular and sacred.

Quote:
However, I would also like to hear just what those who supposedly observe the Sabbath feel is required on that day.

Can I go jogging? Can I ride my bicycle? Can I eat at McDonalds? Can I go shopping?



Have you asked God these questions first? If so, what did he say?

Quote:
There were NO REQUIREMENTS for the Sabbath mentioned in Scripture UNTIL the Israelites were wandering through the desert.



There were also no requirements for marital faithfulness (adultery), stealing, lying, etc. God gave very few commandments before the Israelites came out of Egypt. I can think of three, although there are probably more.

Quote:
The question is whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Law (verse 17, 18).



There is no question. He fulfilled it. I don't think that means that believers are to be lawless.

Quote:
Look, I [u]remember[/u] the original Sabbath each and every day.



I hope our discussion continues to go well, chris. Please don't feel like you need to justify what you do, at least not to me. I have never asked you whether you keep the Sabbath or not.

Quote:
. . . (so much for buying a pizza on that day)!

So much for taking out the trash!



Chris, you are correct that those who observe the Sabbath do not do these things. I am sorry if I do not understand something more you are looking for. Are you asking if you should do those things? Obviously, they are breaking the Sabbath regulations in Exodus that you are referring to in your post.

Quote:
In fact, there are verses in the Old Testament that say we are supposed to avoid meeting others on the Sabbath!



I have never heard that. What would one of those verses be?

Quote:
Yet the argument has now deviated to which day we should attend "worship services."



Perhaps from somewhere else. I have said nothing about this. For the record, I do think it is compatible with Scripture.

Quote:
The Saturday folks are pointing fingers at the Sunday folks (and vice versa)



That would be a bad situation if it were happening. I do not wish to be part of such a crowd. I don't think anything I have said falls into this category, and if so it was misunderstood.

Quote:
If possible, I would like someone to make a list regarding what they think is required of us on a "Sabbath."



Why make lists outside of the Bible? Romans 14 indicates that the New Testament standard is for every man to be fully convinced and observe days according to that. There is no value in making regulations outside of the Bible, just like the Pharisees did, so why call for them? They will only lead to "commandments of men", which Jesus rebuked. Romans 14, plus the rest of Scripture is all that is necessary on this point.

 2008/12/5 16:58Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Koheleth...

Whoa....slow down there, brother. My post was directed to you AND brother Blazed. Some of it was directed to you and some to him. I wasn't trying to put "words in your mouth" (so to speak). In addition, when I said "you can say" -- it wasn't implying that you actually SAID it. Some of the post was actually in response of what others in the past have said about honoring the Sabbath day.

As far as your opinion about the Sabbath -- that is what I have been asking all along! Yet your posts don't seem to indicate where you stand on the issue (at least, clearly). I have asked both you and Blazed to clearly indicate what you believe about the day, yet nothing has indicated the extent of your beliefs. From what you have written, I am assuming that you feel that we are still required to refrain from working on that day. Of course, this is an assumption, because I have not clearly seen you say, "[i]I believe[/i]..." No hard feeling are meant, nor do I want you to think that I somehow feel that I know what you believe. Yet you have posted quite a bit, and I still can't figure out why. On the other hand, you did question my motives too.

I suppose that it should be clear that I don't have any ulterior motives in this, except in a search for truth...and the hope that we can provoke one another toward further study.

Quote:
This is a question of whether today's 7th day is the same as the 7th day in the time of Moses or Bible times. This fact is well established from many sources, both secular and sacred.

...and I very much disagree with you on that. What sources are you quoting? Each time I have looked it up, I can't seem to find a credible academic source that validates the current "Saturday" (or "Sunday" for that matter) to presently occur on the same day that was the actual 7th day of the first week of Creation. I have read arguments that actually question the validity of those beliefs...and whose conclusion boils down to a notion that we DON'T KNOW what day of today's week that the original Sabbath fell upon.
Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"Can I go jogging? Can I ride my bicycle? Can I eat at McDonalds? Can I go shopping?"

Have you asked God these questions first? If so, what did he say?

Hmmm... Yes, I have prayed about it. I have asked God what I should not do on the Sabbath. You know what I heard? Nothing, really. Have you heard a "voice," brother? If so, would you mind me asking what YOU heard?
Quote:
There were also no requirements for marital faithfulness (adultery), stealing, lying, etc. God gave very few commandments before the Israelites came out of Egypt. I can think of three, although there are probably more.

I find this to be strange reasoning. There were commands in regard to adultery, simply in the sense of creation itself. God made one woman for one man, and that a man shall leave his mother and be united with his wife (not [u]wives[/u]). But yes, I understand that the Law was not yet written. In fact, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed WITHOUT a written law -- because it was a matter of people doing their own thing (rather than living for God). Make no mistake: God didn't simply destroy Sodom because of their homosexuality or formal lawbreaking. God destroyed it because it was completely full of sin -- disregarding what some would call "natural law." Cain killing Abel was not unlawful, in the sense that there was no law about murder written in stone. Rather, there was a law written in our hearts -- a gentle voice of the Holy Spirit that leads us to know right from wrong.

Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"The question is whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Law (verse 17, 18)."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no question. He fulfilled it. I don't think that means that believers are to be lawless.

Yet do you understand what I stated in reference to the passage? Jesus said that not one dot or tittle of the law would pass away until it was fulfilled. Read it again:
Quote:
[b]Matthew 5:17-18[/b]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, [u]but to fulfil[/u].

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, [u]till all be fulfilled[/u].

Did Jesus fulfill the Law? Are we presently bound to it? This is just something to think about -- especially since neither you, nor I, nor Leonard Ravenhill, nor any other person can fulfill the requirements of the Law. I just don't believe (from understanding God's sacrifice) how we can be bound to fulfillment of the Law.

Quote:
I hope our discussion continues to go well, chris. Please don't feel like you need to justify what you do, at least not to me. I have never asked you whether you keep the Sabbath or not.

Likewise, brother, I don't even care whether you fulfill what you think are the obligations of the Sabbath or not. I only ask what you think those requirements are -- because you've written quite a bit without clearly defining those things (if any).
Quote:
Chris, you are correct that those who observe the Sabbath do not do these things. I am sorry if I do not understand something more you are looking for. Are you asking if you should do those things? Obviously, they are breaking the Sabbath regulations in Exodus that you are referring to in your post.

Brother, please understand what I am trying to get at. Brother, those were not questions. Those were statements about the extent of the views that some have regarding the Sabbath. This is similiar to getting out the ruler for measuring modesty.
Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
In fact, there are verses in the Old Testament that say we are supposed to avoid meeting others on the Sabbath!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never heard that. What would one of those verses be?

Exodus 16:29 (KJV) states:
"See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; [u]abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day[/u]." Further, there are restrictions about travel on the Sabbath (a "Sabbath's day journey" -- referred to in Acts 1:12). Most of us exceed that each and every Saturday/Sunday when we travel to fellowship with the Church.
Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Yet the argument has now deviated to which day we should attend "worship services."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps from somewhere else. I have said nothing about this. For the record, I do think it is compatible with Scripture.

Yes...but I didn't say that YOU held such an argument. I was describing how some have allowed the argument to deviate to special "holy days" for worship (usually a Saturday or Sunday "sabbath").
Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
"If possible, I would like someone to make a list regarding what they think is required of us on a "Sabbath."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why make lists outside of the Bible? Romans 14 indicates that the New Testament standard is for every man to be fully convinced and observe days according to that. There is no value in making regulations outside of the Bible, just like the Pharisees did, so why call for them? They will only lead to "commandments of men", which Jesus rebuked. Romans 14, plus the rest of Scripture is all that is necessary on this point.


I think that, at least on this, we agree. What I am trying to say is that we are freed from the Law -- no longer bound to obey every word of it. We don't stone our children (or those who carry sticks on the Sabbath day). Further, we don't fulfill every dot and tittle of the Law. Why? It was fulfilled for us. Jesus went so far as to lay the axe to the root of the Law -- saying to avoid lust rather than adultery, hate rather than murder, etc... I think that this is explained by Paul in Colossians:
Quote:
[b]Colossians 2:16-17 KJV[/b]

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NIV[/b]

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[b]Colossians 2:16-17 NASB[/b]

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day --
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


There are just so many people who, from time to time, explain their particular beliefs about honoring the "Sabbath" day. Yet most of the time, they don't actually explain the requirements. I understand that some might believe in honoring the day -- but how? This is usually lost in translation, as the focus seems to turn to whether or not we are still bound to fulfilling at least some of the Law.

I have a feeling that we agree much more than we disagree. I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to remember the Sabbath (especially, the ORIGINAL work that was accomplished by the 7th day). However, I sort of feel perplexed when I hear the need to honor the day...without anyone saying just what that actually entails.

If I were to feel legalistically bound to remember the Sabbath day, it would simply be to remember it and not to work that actually was part of my profession. Period. In this sense, I fulfill the commandment (and have for most of my life...without even knowing it). I think that much of the additional rules for living are simply things that we are no longer bound to. Of course, there is debate over whether or not we are even bound to the command regarding the Sabbath in the first place. My view is that EVERY day is a Sabbath for God's people.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/12/5 18:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:

So according to your record Old Joe, I am NOT a Christian?


Tell me, what "IN" the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil? What type, what shadow?

Again, and what about John Baptist parents who kept "ALL the commandments of God and ordinances BLAMELESS" and were rigtheous before God. It did say they kept "ALL" the commandments of God.

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

Are we not to be conformed to his image?


Old Joe You said: "The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, [b]whereas the motivating factor of the latter is OUT OF LOVE TO YOUR SAVIOUR[/b]."

And how did the Saviour say to do that: John 14:15 "[color=CC0000]If ye love me; KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS[/color] "..

Old Joe, do you love Jesus? If you do, then Jesus said :"...KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"

This is not about self rightesouness-this is about OBEDIENCE because I love him.

He said if you love him TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" is one of his commandments.



No type, no shadow, just the absolute perfection required by the commandments.


Is your understanding of God ABSOLUTELY perfect, if not you have broken the first. Have you ever put anything, including a commandment or bible truth above the very person of God, if so you have broken the second. Have you ever approached God with even the slightest iota of irreverence, if so you have broken the third. Have your thoughts always been entirely and perfectly centered on Christ on the Lord’s Day, if so you have broken the fourth. Has/is your honoring of your parents always been entirely and absolutely perfect, if not you have broken the fifth. Have you ever been angry at someone without a cause, if so you have broken the sixth. Have your relational thoughts always and only been entirely perfectly reserved for your wife, if not you have broken the seventh. Ever even considered or accidentally taken anything that did not belong to you, including time, if so you have broken the eighth. Have you ever even considered shading a story ever so lightly in your favor, if so you have broken the ninth. Have you ever thought you may need anything of this world above the absolute minimum requirements for sustaining physical and spiritual life ever, if so you have broken the tenth.

If you are trying to tell me your obedience in these things always has been/is/always will be absolutely perfect, it is only a display of ignorance of the very perfection required of the law. At best all of mankind’s obedience to any commandment is partial. That is to say that if the law is perfect at 100%, man’s obedience may be some relative percentage of 5-10-15% but it never makes it to the 100% perfection that the law requires. To be told to “keep the commandments” is simply an exhortation to sanctification and growth in personal practical holiness in preparation of the saint for the next world. Yet the attainment of the 100% perfection required of the law cannot be accomplished here.

If you believe otherwise, I would like for you to show me an example of a man apart from Christ who has kept all the commandments in their absolute perfection without any need of fulfillment of the requirements of perfection by Christ. The rich young ruler made the highest profession of any in the Bible with this regard, yet when pushed further than his profession, his denial of the first and second commandments were recorded for all posterity to see.


Old Joe

 2008/12/5 19:32
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:
Quote:

So according to your record Old Joe, I am NOT a Christian?


Tell me, what "IN" the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil? What type, what shadow?

Again, and what about John Baptist parents who kept "ALL the commandments of God and ordinances BLAMELESS" and were rigtheous before God. It did say they kept "ALL" the commandments of God.

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

Are we not to be conformed to his image?


Old Joe You said: "The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, [b]whereas the motivating factor of the latter is OUT OF LOVE TO YOUR SAVIOUR[/b]."

And how did the Saviour say to do that: John 14:15 "[color=CC0000]If ye love me; KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS[/color] "..

Old Joe, do you love Jesus? If you do, then Jesus said :"...KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"

This is not about self rightesouness-this is about OBEDIENCE because I love him.

He said if you love him TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" is one of his commandments.



No type, no shadow, just the absolute perfection required by the commandments.


Is your understanding of God ABSOLUTELY perfect, if not you have broken the first. Have you ever put anything, including a commandment or bible truth above the very person of God, if so you have broken the second. Have you ever approached God with even the slightest iota of irreverence, if so you have broken the third. Have your thoughts always been entirely and perfectly centered on Christ on the Lord’s Day, if so you have broken the fourth. Has/is your honoring of your parents always been entirely and absolutely perfect, if not you have broken the fifth. Have you ever been angry at someone without a cause, if so you have broken the sixth. Have your relational thoughts always and only been entirely perfectly reserved for your wife, if not you have broken the seventh. Ever even considered or accidentally taken anything that did not belong to you, including time, if so you have broken the eighth. Have you ever even considered shading a story ever so lightly in your favor, if so you have broken the ninth. Have you ever thought you may need anything of this world above the absolute minimum requirements for sustaining physical and spiritual life ever, if so you have broken the tenth.

If you are trying to tell me your obedience in these things always has been/is/always will be absolutely perfect, it is only a display of ignorance of the very perfection required of the law. At best all of mankind’s obedience to any commandment is partial. That is to say that if the law is perfect at 100%, man’s obedience may be some relative percentage of 5-10-15% but it never makes it to the 100% perfection that the law requires. To be told to “keep the commandments” is simply an exhortation to sanctification and growth in personal practical holiness in preparation of the saint for the next world. Yet the attainment of the 100% perfection required of the law cannot be accomplished here.

If you believe otherwise, I would like for you to show me an example of a man apart from Christ who has kept all the commandments in their absolute perfection without any need of fulfillment of the requirements of perfection by Christ. The rich young ruler made the highest profession of any in the Bible with this regard, yet when pushed further than his profession, his denial of the first and second commandments were recorded for all posterity to see.


Old Joe



Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, [b]and be thou perfect[/b].

Matt 5:48 [color=FF0000]BE YE therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father which is in heaven is perfect.[/color]


Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in [b]ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Deut 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

2 Chron 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and [b]with a perfect heart[/b]

Job 1:1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; [b]and that man was perfect[/b] and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers

Psalm 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart

And finally:

John 17:3 [color=CC0000]I in them, and thou in me, [b]that they may be made perfect in one[/b]; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.[/color]

2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

There is no scripture that says Jesus had to fulfil the 10 Commandments-there was nothing in them for him to fulfil. Fulfil in scripture, doesn't mean do away, or put to an end. And whether you believe or know this or not, we have things to fulfil:

Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh "US TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS". Then he suffered him.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: [b]for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law[/b]. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: [b]therefore love is the fulfilling of the law[/b].

Just because Christ fulfilled the law, doesn't mean that there are no parts of the law that we do not have to fulfil. We have to fulfil the duty to love, and to love is of the law.

PS: "keep my commandments"-means all of them, in which remembering to keep the sabbath day holy is one of his commandments Old Joe.

: You didn't answer my question about me not being a Christain according to your record?

 2008/12/5 22:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:

BlazedbyGod wrote:
Quote:

Old_Joe wrote:
Quote:

So according to your record Old Joe, I am NOT a Christian?


Tell me, what "IN" the 10 Commandments did Christ have to fulfil? What type, what shadow?

Again, and what about John Baptist parents who kept "ALL the commandments of God and ordinances BLAMELESS" and were rigtheous before God. It did say they kept "ALL" the commandments of God.

Joe, you mean to tell me, that a Spirit filled believer, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit cannot obey the 10 Commandments? Is not Christ INSIDE of his believers to ENABLE them to keep God's 10 Commandments as he did when he was on earth in the flesh?

Are we not to be conformed to his image?


Old Joe You said: "The motivating factor of the former is of a self-serving obligatory nature to which even the heathen profess to obtain, [b]whereas the motivating factor of the latter is OUT OF LOVE TO YOUR SAVIOUR[/b]."

And how did the Saviour say to do that: John 14:15 "[color=CC0000]If ye love me; KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS[/color] "..

Old Joe, do you love Jesus? If you do, then Jesus said :"...KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"

This is not about self rightesouness-this is about OBEDIENCE because I love him.

He said if you love him TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" is one of his commandments.



No type, no shadow, just the absolute perfection required by the commandments.


Is your understanding of God ABSOLUTELY perfect, if not you have broken the first. Have you ever put anything, including a commandment or bible truth above the very person of God, if so you have broken the second. Have you ever approached God with even the slightest iota of irreverence, if so you have broken the third. Have your thoughts always been entirely and perfectly centered on Christ on the Lord’s Day, if so you have broken the fourth. Has/is your honoring of your parents always been entirely and absolutely perfect, if not you have broken the fifth. Have you ever been angry at someone without a cause, if so you have broken the sixth. Have your relational thoughts always and only been entirely perfectly reserved for your wife, if not you have broken the seventh. Ever even considered or accidentally taken anything that did not belong to you, including time, if so you have broken the eighth. Have you ever even considered shading a story ever so lightly in your favor, if so you have broken the ninth. Have you ever thought you may need anything of this world above the absolute minimum requirements for sustaining physical and spiritual life ever, if so you have broken the tenth.

If you are trying to tell me your obedience in these things always has been/is/always will be absolutely perfect, it is only a display of ignorance of the very perfection required of the law. At best all of mankind’s obedience to any commandment is partial. That is to say that if the law is perfect at 100%, man’s obedience may be some relative percentage of 5-10-15% but it never makes it to the 100% perfection that the law requires. To be told to “keep the commandments” is simply an exhortation to sanctification and growth in personal practical holiness in preparation of the saint for the next world. Yet the attainment of the 100% perfection required of the law cannot be accomplished here.

If you believe otherwise, I would like for you to show me an example of a man apart from Christ who has kept all the commandments in their absolute perfection without any need of fulfillment of the requirements of perfection by Christ. The rich young ruler made the highest profession of any in the Bible with this regard, yet when pushed further than his profession, his denial of the first and second commandments were recorded for all posterity to see.


Old Joe



Matt 5:48 [color=FF0000]BE YE therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father which is in heaven is perfect.[/color]

PS: You didn't answer my question about me not being a Christain according to your record?



It's your own testimony. If you believe “there was not anything in the 10 commandments that Christ had to fulfil”, then though your profession may be as high as the rich young ruler you simply are not a Christian. You might not believe this now, but eventually your fear will come upon you as an overwhelming flood.

It seems now that you are also making claims to perfection? Keep going, it will be interesting to see exactly how high your profession goes.


Old Joe

 2008/12/5 23:42





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