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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Here is yet more proof of imputed sin-
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were [b]by nature[/b] children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Did you see that? By nature, we are children of wrath. Our first birth makes us fit for wrath, this is brought as well in the Gospel of John-
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

What is interesting in this verse is the word for "obey". Basically it means "disbelieve". The disbelieving one has the wrath of God abiding on him. Disbelieving the testimony that God Himself has given to His Son fits one for wrath. Could this be why God on the Mount of Transfiguration said, "this is my Son...hear Him" though the Law and Prophets were represented there as well?


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patrick heaviside

 2008/11/24 14:12Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

How did Adam have a nature? It takes a Father to give the Nature of that Father. If Adam being created, Adam had no nature. Adam had free will, correct? Spiritually, because Spirit is Spirit and flesh is flesh, so spiritually Adam had no Father nature. By Adam's free will, he chose his spiritual nature, when he believed Satan and his wife, and Adam's free will chose his spiritual nature. Jesus said, "you are of your father the devil". Adam birthed in himself, (self), choosing, his own nature, which was the choice of believing that, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, would make him his own god nature and be like God. If Adam by his own choice became a child of the devil, sin natured and a liar from the beginning, Then all Adam's offspring which we all are, would be of that choosing. Would it not be prudent to say, if we want to be different, how can we choose another nature, "believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and God by His perfect plan in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinated us to be Christ natured and son's of God?

The nature of Christ came from His birth Father, DNA, God The Father's DNA and Nature. All man and all God. The perfect man, the only sacrifice the Father could receive for the sin nature of all mankind chosen by Adam when he sinned in the garden passing his chosen father Satan's nature to all man.

That is why we must be born again of Spirit and the Water of Life, Jesus Christ, the Nature of our Father's Seed, which is the Incorruptable Seed of God Himself. Perfect in Spirit by the Spirit of Christ birthed in us, becoming Perfect in our soul, by the Mind of Christ now in us, by the Holy Spirit teaching, which we are to renew each day to the Mind of Christ. We will be Perfect in Christ when we give up these corn of wheat bodies and put in the ground and resurrected like the body of Christ which we will have. John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered (Spirit of Christ in us), us from so great a death, and doth deliver: (The Holy Spirit renewing our minds, to our Spirit, which is Christ)in whom we trust that He will yet deliver us; (our new bodies on resurrection day, which will be like His Glorious Body.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is the "Word"? John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This is why God must do the birthing, We cannot call Him Father unless He puts His Seed in us and we are born again son's of God. Now we can call Him Father as Jesus told us, "Our Father".

"if haply they might feel after Him, and find him," (Only by God's Seed birthed in the believer.)

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

What a beautiful word, "OFFSPRING".

Acts 17:23-34 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/11/24 14:46Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

roaringlamb:
Do you actually read what I have to say, or do you only scan through, finding what you think you can debunk?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Here is yet more proof of imputed sin-
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were [b]by nature[/b] children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Did you see that? By nature, we are children of wrath. Our first birth makes us fit for wrath,

Yes, by nature because we all chose to sin.
Since we all chose to sin, it is natural for us to be children of wrath.
It's not talking about we were born that way.

As for "imputed sin":
For Abraham to have righteousness imputed to him, he first needed to do something, that is believe.
For the guilt of sin to be imputed to anyone, we first need to do something, that is to sin.

You might have wrong definition of some words:
[b]Sin:[/b]
Knowing that sin is a verb. Or when Paul talks about it in an abstract sense, it is the unlwfull affectiuons of the flesh.

[b]Flesh:[/b]
The amoral, nonsencient body which takes plesure in anything which is plesurable.

[b]Guilt:[/b]
fact or state of having committed an offense.
Being at fault.

According to you, mankind is imputed with:
an action or unlwfull affectiuons of the flesh;
And/or
mankind is imputed with:
The fact or state of having committed an offense or being at fault.

Further more.
it was said of Abraham that Righteousness was imputed to him because of faith.
or
Faith was imputed to him as Righteousness-
All because He did something, which is believe.

You must explain what unborn infants or the onse who are yet unaccountable did to be imputed as guilt, or with sin(a verb &/or unlwfull affectiuons of the flesh)




 2008/11/24 14:54Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Do you actually read what I have to say, or do you only scan through, finding what you think you can debunk?



To be honest with you, I do not really pay attention to what you post as I know it is nothing but the same old Pelagian heresy being touted as some great truth.

Sorry brother(yes I consider you a brother)I don't need to drink poison to tell someone it is dangerous, but I can point them away from the poison to what is good and healthy.

Please do not take it personally, I only have a problem with your doctrine not you.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/11/24 15:00Profile









 Re:

Logic wrote: The purpose of the Tree of life was for Adam to live forever(Gen 3:22)

Right and their disobedience (sin) to God's command to not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil sent them to death. "Surely you will not die" said satan. Oh yes, and they do because of their disobedience. Why else did they physically die? Because they couldn't eat from the tree of life? Right and why could they no longer partake of that which kept them alive? The disobedience that is sin. I think you made my point. The fact is there was no documented physical death before the sin of Adam and Eve. If so, show me. Don't go picking out something else debatable and don't give me implication through obscure scripture. Prove it.

The fact remains that physical death wasn't realized until they disobeyed or 'sinned' against God.



Logic wrote: 'These verses do not prove that Adam would have died physically regardless of his disobedience.'

I wasn't trying to prove this by those verses. Please see where I stated "concerning sin" and go from there.

Logic wrote: Did you get that revelation through prayer, or been taught that?

That's between me and the one to whom I pray. But I can tell you that I'm not beneath being taught nor am I above fervency of prayer and the reading of scripture as a matter of relationship required for any wisdom. As far as being taught, have you never been taught? Is everything you state one hundred percent revelation from prayer? If so I can understand why you have no qualms about teaching us your revelations. Short of that, that is, if you've allowed yourself to be taught by anyone at anytime then your question is moot. If I allowed you to teach me would I be viewed any less or would you be obliged to do so? Because, in a way, when you present your convictions here on this thread you are at the very least, teaching as a byproduct of revealing of what you believe to be true. I'm glad I can go to the throne of grace and pray and I'm thankful that others in the early church allowed Paul to teach them in the Spirit.



Logic wrote: First of all, it is possible, Jesus proved your conclusion to be wrong.

Wrong, the Son of God was the only one without sin and he took 'the form of man' but was also God incarnate. No one else can say that, and no one else was chosen for the cross as it required a spotless lamb. The OT points to Christ, not anyone else, so how could it be possible for anyone else? And the Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself when Paul says 'we have all sinned' and fallen short. He meant, of course, except the Son Of God.

Logic wrote:

Quote:

I'm not bound by proof, I know there is something in my innermost parts that war against the righteousness of Christ or as Paul put it in Romans 7:3 'the law of sin that DWELLS IN my members".

That's called the flesh and its unlawful desires."

No, I think it is just as Paul said it was... sin. He said the law of 'sin', I took it straight from Scripture, why else would I put: Book, Chapter, and Verse. It dwelled in his members, just as it was written. It's quoted straight from scripture and again I'm not going to quibble about different texts, I believe the overall context of each version is clear as I stated before.

I'm comfortable with my wrestling's in this area as I'm sure you are given your convictions throughout the thread. Many here disagree or present their opinions/revelations. Perhaps you're right, but other's are convinced in their own relationship. I presented mine. We can disagree but I can't continue to quarrel. You can pick apart just about anything on this thread, which only adds to the continuation of wrangling. At some point we have to cut bait and fish with what we have worked out in relationship.

 2008/11/24 15:02









 Re:

Hi ccrider,

I just wanted to put that out there because a lot of people (a real lot) believe in an abstract, imputed 'christian' righteousness that is invisible and not an actual righteousness that is visible. I've been told by a pastor before that in the flesh we'll keep sinning, even as christians, but in "reality" we are righteous because of "faith". I believe in righteousness by faith in Christ. I may not understand everything about it yet but I understand needing forgiveness. I also don't believe christians keep on sinning. They're are righteous by faith because they have been cleansed and they continue to walk righteously in faith - not delusional positive thinking. I hope that clears up why I posted that. It wasn't a commentary on our entire post.

Ben

 2008/11/24 15:02
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
How did Adam have a nature? It takes a Father to give the Nature of that Father. If Adam being created, Adam had no nature.

Huh?
Adam had no nature?
Not even a human nature
Nonsence!

Quote:
Spiritually, because Spirit is Spirit and flesh is flesh, so spiritually Adam had no Father nature.

Your making this up as yu go, right?

Quote:
By Adam's free will, he chose his spiritual nature, when he believed Satan and his wife, and Adam's free will chose his spiritual nature.

This is not christian doctrine.

Quote:
Jesus said, "you are of your father the devil".

Because they chose to hate Jesus.
If they chose to love Him, the would be a child of Abraham.

Quote:
Adam birthed in himself, (self), choosing, his own nature, which was the choice of believing that, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, would make him his own god nature and be like God.

I hope your not a teacher.

This whole post is not even worth reading all the way through.

You can not say that this is inspired by the Holy spirit.
Can not say that this is christian doctrine.
Can not defend this with scripture.

It is all rubbish!!!!!!!

 2008/11/24 15:10Profile









 Re:

[b]1)[/b] if inherited sin means [u]our natural ability to be tempted[/u] then it is no cause for guilt. Jesus was able to be tempted.

[b]2)[/b] if inherited sin means [u]wanting to sin[/u] then we don't have free will, aren't guilty, nullify the cross, and make an image of the beast and worship it.

[b]3)[/b] if inherited sin means [u]something about our nature that makes temptation more difficult to resist.[/u] Then Jesus had it and overcame. Otherwise antichrist is true.


[i]Does anyone have any alternative definitions that fit in a sentence?[/i]

 2008/11/24 15:40
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Because they chose to hate Jesus. If they chose to love Him, the would be a child of Abraham.



I just thought I'd throw a little more light into this.

Look at what Christ tells these men later in John 10-
John 10:24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
John 10:26 [b]but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.[/b]

Also look at these from John 8-
John 8:37 [b]I know that you are offspring of Abraham[/b]; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.
John 8:38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and [b]you do what you have heard from your father[/b]."

This comes before the text in question between the two of you. Yet it goes on-
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
John 8:43 [b]Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.[/b]

The word for "cannot" here is the same as the word for "cannot" in John 6:44 and it is the word "dunamis" and means ability. So literally, they were unable to hear the words Christ spoke.

Now look at the next verse-
John 8:44 [b]You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.[/b] He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

These were unable to hear Christ's words because their will was to do Satan's desires, or in light of the discussion here, they were dead in sin and unable to respond to Christ in a saving way.


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patrick heaviside

 2008/11/24 15:56Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Nature is not to sin, that is my choice. None of us could have done any better than Adam did, no not one.

Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Who of us is righteousness? The only One that has made us righteous, by His Nature that is birthed in us.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Mark 7:14-16 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Mark 7:23

All these evil things come from within,… All evil thoughts, words, and actions, take their rise from the inward parts of man; from his heart; which is sadly corrupted, and is the fountain from whence all these impure streams flow. And if these come from within, then not from without; they are not by imitation or are the mere effects of example in others: example may indeed, and often does, draw out the evil that is within; but it does not produce it there; if it was not there before, it could not draw it out from thence: and if all these evils come from within, then the inward part of man must be sinful and polluted, previous to the commission of these evil things; and from whence springs then that inward pollution? It is the fruit of original sin, of Adam's transgression; the consequence of which is, a corrupt nature, which is derived to all his posterity: for his nature being corrupted by sinning, and he having all human nature in him, the individuals of it could not be propagated by ordinary generation, without the pollution of sin cleaving to them; "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one", Job 14:4. Nor has there ever been any instance to the contrary, but the man Christ Jesus; whose human nature was holy, it not descending from Adam by ordinary generation; otherwise, all men, as David was, are "shapen in iniquity, and conceived in sin", Ps 51:5, and this is the source and spring of all sinful action, internal and external.

If Nature is not proceeding from man, then how did Jesus Christ have a God nature and not a sin nature as Adam? Different fathers.

Adam has and we have a sin nature of our father the devil, in whom our father Adam chose to believe.

1 Corinthians 15:45-56 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The nature of sin is of the devil who was our father before God rebirthed His Son in us.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/11/24 16:25Profile





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