SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : can you prove sin nature?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:
The very reason that we need to be born again is because we are spiritually dead and are sinners.

That's because we sinned. Spritual death means hell-bound. The wages of sin is deserving hell.

The wages: What we earn
of sin: by committing sins
is death: is deserving hell

We are not forced to deserve hell as soon as we grow up. That would not be earned wages.

 2008/11/24 12:03









 Re:

Define sin nature in one sentence.
It will disprove itself.

 2008/11/24 12:07
menace_ankit
Member



Joined: 2008/11/24
Posts: 1


 Re:

It is our betrayal on God and his love towards us.

 2008/11/24 12:14Profile









 Re:

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm referring to a sin "nature" that we are born with.

But, Amen, we have treated God's love as nothing.

 2008/11/24 12:20
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:
The very reason that we need to be born again is because we are spiritually dead and are sinners.

True, but from our own first accountable sin.
Not because of a sidtant relitive.

 2008/11/24 12:28Profile









 Re:

Logic wrote "Physical death is not the wage of sin."

This would imply that Adam would have died physically regardless of his disobedience (sin). There is nothing to support that. Was there physical death before Adam?? And why is it that physical death comes only after sin has entered into the world???

Concerning sin....

Romans 5

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given,


but sin is not counted where there is no law (not counted but sin just the same). 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of(AA) the one who was to come.

Romans 7

"13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good,

in order that sin might be shown to be sin (ie.. sin was there but it needed to be shown as sin),


and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual,

but I am of the flesh, sold under sin."

I'm not going to quibble between versions, in reading various texts I believe the overall context in each case points to sin nature. At the very least, sin being present without the law.. before the law, can be supported by scripture. Being that animals cannot sin, the unclassified sin that the law has yet to describe still exists. If sin existed before the law then it had to be manifested in humans. Noah was righteous in God's eyes but he also got stinking drunk which led to the cursing of his son who inappropriately handled the situation. Regardless of whether or not there was a law, there was a consequence of behavior. Whether that's sin nature or a decision to sin can be a matter of debate... but sin was present and there were consequences before the law was given. The law just gave us the parameters and called it what it was.... SIN.

Jesus Christ in us through being born again replaces what entered into the world through Adam. Substitutionary atonement is Christ on the Cross and Christ in me. Whether that's a sin nature, or the Finneyesque version of choosing sin, or righteousness, willfully doesn't matter. Christ's death took care of it and He lives in me so I can do good works... the work of an evangelist. Everything else is elementary milk. If we don't have a sin nature and righteousness was exclusively defined by our decision not to choose sin then the righteousness of Christ means little and His righteousness that is Him who is in me doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Christ is the only one righteous:

But [Matthew 6:33 ] seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, [1 Kgs 3:11-14; Mark 10:29, 30; 1 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 3:9] and all these things will be added to you.

I'm not to seek my own righteousness because without God it will not surpass that of the Pharisees. And from above we know that Christ told us to seek his righteousness. Therefore I conclude that we cannot be righteous on our own, even through any willful decision to not sin...ever, if that's even possible. It appears to me from specific Scripture and 'the context' of Scripture that we need Christ for our righteousness and outside of this righteousness we are dead physically and spiritually. That tells me that even if I had the will and strength 'not to sin' that is, without a sin nature, I could not make it to heaven. Nor could anyone before Christ or before the law which is why He died for all sin. His redemption of sin is not limited to time lest the OT prophet's (like Jonah and his disobedience and Moses in his) die in theirs. 'Who then can be saved??' one disciple asked. Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."
Elements of 'proof' in any debatable situation are scarcely found with a God who doesn't require conclusive proof of anything to be saved. My sin is my proof that I'm a sinner. I believe that I am just as much a sinner if I holed myself up in a cave and chose nothing but righteous thoughts for one week as I was one week earlier when I may have judged someone unfairly or lost my temper with a co-worker. I'm not bound by proof, I know there is something in my innermost parts that war against the righteousness of Christ or as Paul put it in Romans 7:3 'the law of sin that DWELLS IN my members". So my proof here isn't merely subjective to what I know to be true within me, Pauls himself advised that it would be. That's all the proof I need.


 2008/11/24 12:54









 Re:

Quote:
Christ is the only one righteous:


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Christians are righteous. They are forgiven of past sins and unwilling to commit future sins. They are cleansed from all unrighteousness.

 2008/11/24 13:12
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
This would imply that Adam would have died physically regardless of his disobedience (sin).



And this is the view of Pelagius who was time and time again written off as a heretic. Look into Church history and you will find this to be true.

I can only say that it is dangerous to not know what has gone on in the past as there is "nothing new under the sun".

How this of all the heresies denounced has continued on can only be accounted to the fact that it makes man feel he is the captain of his own ship and God is at his whim, thus reducing Christianity to "moralistic, therapeutic, deism" and really doesn't need supernatural power or a work accomplished outside of us because "we can do it", we just need to be shown the way.

The danger in all of this is that Christ becomes an example only, one we must imitate [i]in order to be saved[/i] and not [i]because we are saved[/i].

So the one who "does right" is forgiven, while the one who has faith is condemned. But take a moment to really ponder that, is that what Scripture really says about the righteous?

Consider the following verses-
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 [b]the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.[/b]
Rom 3:23 for [b]all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,[/b]
Rom 3:24 [b]and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,[/b]

Consider these verses as well-
Rom 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:4 For [b]Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[/b]

Many people follow Christ and try to make a law of imitating Him, but none of this needs supernatural renewal and rebirth. None of this needs a cross either as man can atone for his own sins by "doing" right in the sight of God. But look at Paul's words to the Galatians-
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for [b]if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.[/b]

Man is one fallen lump, dead in sin, and set on self. He will never be righteous before God apart from the new birth that takes him out of Adam and puts him into Christ. If this is true, then all of our salvation is dependent on Christ alone and faith in what He has done apart from us.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/11/24 13:47Profile









 Re:

Ben Joseph let me be clear.

I am righteous in Christ and thus am now a Christian, not on my own without him. I was never a Christian before being born again, and accepting Christ as the atonement for my sin now makes me righteous. I think most could see that this was the context.

Christians are righteous by being made righteous IN CHRIST after being born again.

If you look below at the Scripture I used below what you took out, you'll see I quote Christ as saying: "seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness." We are told to seek it to be born again because we are not righteous without it. It was also a distinction between true righteousness and that of the Pharisees. When we are born again the Kingdom of God is in us and we are made righteous through Christ by faith. So yes Christians are righteous as I stated elsewhere in the same blog as you used.

If you were judging my intent to deceive by the clip you chose, you were in error brother.

 2008/11/24 13:51
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ccrider wrote:
Logic wrote "Physical death is not the wage of sin."

This would imply that Adam would have died physically regardless of his disobedience (sin). There is nothing to support that. Was there physical death before Adam?? And why is it that physical death comes only after sin has entered into the world???

Understand that which is made "with hands" is temporal, that which is "made without hands" is eternal.
[b]Mark 14:58[/b] [color=990000]We heard him say, I will destroy this temple (His body) that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.[/color]
[b]2Corinth 5:1[/b] [color=990000]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (body) were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.[/color]

Now, if Jesus had a Body wHich is temporal (made with hands) as HE never sinned and not "totaly depraved", their is no reason to think that our body is temporal because of our sinfulness.

The purpose of the Tree of life was for Adam to live forever(Gen 3:22)

Quote:
Concerning sin....

Romans 5

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-

13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given,


but sin is not counted where there is no law (not counted but sin just the same). 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of(AA) the one who was to come.

Romans 7

"13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good,

in order that sin might be shown to be sin (ie.. sin was there but it needed to be shown as sin),


and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual,

but I am of the flesh, sold under sin."

These verses do not prove that Adam would have died physically regardless of his disobedience.

Furthermore, I have also proven that the verses you quoted do not prove "original sin" or "sin nature".
If you need me to repost the proof, I will.

Quote:
I'm not going to quibble between versions, in reading various texts I believe the overall context in each case points to sin nature

Did you get that revelation through prayer, or been taught that?

Quote:
At the very least, sin being present without the law.. before the law, can be supported by scripture.

Yes, but sin is only willful, intentional, volitionally by choice.
When Paul speaks about sin in the abstract sense, he is talking about desires that are sinful even before the law reveals them to be.

Quote:
Being that animals cannot sin, the unclassified sin that the law has yet to describe still exists. If sin existed before the law then it had to be manifested in humans. Noah was righteous in God's eyes but he also got stinking drunk which led to the cursing of his son who inappropriately handled the situation. Regardless of whether or not there was a law, there was a consequence of behavior. Whether that's sin nature or a decision to sin can be a matter of debate... but sin was present and there were consequences before the law was given. The law just gave us the parameters and called it what it was.... SIN.

Jesus Christ in us through being born again replaces what entered into the world through Adam.

Adam only introduced sin into the world.

Quote:
If we don't have a sin nature and righteousness was exclusively defined by our decision not to choose sin then the righteousness of Christ means little and His righteousness that is Him who is in me doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Christ is the only one righteous:

First of all, if you never, ever sinned, you would never become unrighteous, therefore, righteousness would be exclusively defined by our decision to not ever choose sin.

Second, if you’re talking about sinning, then choosing to never sin again, the righteousness can not be defined by our decision not to choose sin.

However, righteousness is exclusively defined by our decision to receive Christ's righteousness by acknowledging our self defiled filthy rags of unrighteousness.

Our unrighteousness can not be from anybody else’s sin but our own

Quote:
But [Matthew 6:33 ] seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, [1 Kgs 3:11-14; Mark 10:29, 30; 1 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 3:9] and all these things will be added to you.

I'm not to seek my own righteousness because without God it will not surpass that of the Pharisees. And from above we know that Christ told us to seek his righteousness.

Therefore I conclude that we cannot be righteous on our own, even through any willful decision to not sin...ever, if that's even possible.

First of all, it is possible, Jesus proved your conclusion to be wrong.

Second, we can be righteous on our own, even through any willful decision to not ever sin, because that is how Jesus was righteous.

Quote:
It appears to me from specific Scripture and 'the context' of Scripture that we need Christ for our righteousness and outside of this righteousness we are dead physically and spiritually.

Not by nature, but by choice, if by nature, it ain't your fault.
So what's it gonna be?
Blame your miserable spiritual death on Adam or God for making it all Pass onto you, or blame your self?

Quote:
That tells me that even if I had the will and strength 'not to sin' that is, without a sin nature, I could not make it to heaven.

You could if you never, ever sinned.

Quote:
Nor could anyone before Christ or before the law which is why He died for all sin. His redemption of sin is not limited to time lest the OT prophet's (like Jonah and his disobedience and Moses in his) die in theirs. 'Who then can be saved??' one disciple asked. Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."
Elements of 'proof' in any debatable situation are scarcely found with a God who doesn't require conclusive proof of anything to be saved. My sin is my proof that I'm a sinner. I believe that I am just as much a sinner if I holed myself up in a cave and chose nothing but righteous thoughts for one week as I was one week earlier when I may have judged someone unfairly or lost my temper with a co-worker.

You’re a sinner because you sin, nit that you sin because you’re a sinner.

Quote:
I'm not bound by proof, I know there is something in my innermost parts that war against the righteousness of Christ or as Paul put it in Romans 7:3 'the law of sin that DWELLS IN my members".

That's called the flesh and its unlawful desires.

 2008/11/24 14:10Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy