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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Logic, GodsFire.

You just gave the proof in answer to the original question.

It was a somewhat dangerous proposition to provoke a response but that was my intention. Had hoped Ben would have responded.

Ben, what was your [i]instant[/i], initial reaction to my comment? Honestly?

I was attempting some Paul like 'cunning' if you will to prove out our [u]nature[/u]. How we [i]react[/i], whether or not it is vocalized, just the impulse of that nature even before it has a chance to think ... If someone came up from behind you and cold cocked you in the head ... Similarly as was alluded to earlier, when a baby has something taken away from it ...

Am short on time but wanted to clarify this.

Even the presumptions that I knew were possible (That someone would likely react to my comments as they did) I held somewhat in abeyance and knew this would be tricky. I[i]meant[/i] none of it brother.

This will likely need further clarification later, but for know am thinking along the lines of Jesus giving inference to the 'dogs', a bit of the test and 'provoking' if you will.



_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/11/21 16:38Profile
GodsFire
Member



Joined: 2008/11/4
Posts: 77


 Re:

Very nice brother moderator,

it took me a minute after i clicked submit to realize, " wait a minute",Bmaybe brother Moderator is up to something, but I wasn't quite sure.

Bless U brothers

 2008/11/21 17:07Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Ge 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Taking a look at these two verses with an understanding heart, one can easily see that both were naked and were not ashamed. After they sinned they knew that they were naked and sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.

However God slew a lamb and made them clothes to completely cover them. There nature had changed after they disobeyed and now they have a nature of shame that resulted from their sin. There nature is not the same as it was before they sinned and our nature came from Adam because we are born of him. The bible speaks much about the blood and life being in the blood. The bible speaks much about the Lamb being innocent and the blood being shed for the remission of sins and without the shedding of the blood their is no forgiveness nor removing of sin.

To say that we came into this world like Adam did, is nonsense. Adam was created from God and formed from the earth. Eve was created from God out of Adam. Adam and Eve were not born period. Everybody else on the planet earth were born from Adam and Eve from their nature after the fall. There is no way we can have the original nature that Adam was created with from God when we are born. We are not created like Adam because we are all born from Adam. Adam and Eve had a fully developed body when they came into the world and was naked and didn't know it because they were covered in the glory of God.

Once they sinned they lost that covering and died spiritually in their relationship with God and eventually died physically because God would not let them eat of the tree of Life. God did not want them to live for ever in sin and separation from Him. Jesus came into the world without a sin nature because His blood did not come from Adam but He came in the likeness of Adam as a man. He was born of God from his birth by the Holy Ghost. God is his Father not Adam. The virgin Mary is his mother but her blood was cut off from mixing with the Father's blood. This is so awesome words can't praise Him enough. All the Lambs that were slain from the days of Adam until Jesus were representing the Lamb of God. Read in the old testament about God's requirements for the Lamb. We must realize God is Holy and will not except our nature, we must be born again with the nature of God.

Look at the Altar, the blood, and the cross all through the bible and you will see that God will have nothing of that old nature. We were born from that first Adam but we must be born of the last Adam (Jesus Christ) in order to have fellowship with God. Jesus is the only man born perfect without a sin nature and he is our only righteousness before God.

 2008/11/21 17:14Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
crsschk wrote:
Logic, GodsFire.

You just gave the proof in answer to the original question.

It was a somewhat dangerous proposition to provoke a response but that was my intention. Had hoped Ben would have responded.

Ben, what was your [i]instant[/i], initial reaction to my comment? Honestly?

I was attempting some Paul like 'cunning' if you will to prove out our [u]nature[/u]. How we [i]react[/i], whether or not it is vocalized, just the impulse of that nature even before it has a chance to think ... If someone came up from behind you and cold cocked you in the head ... Similarly as was alluded to earlier, when a baby has something taken away from it ...

Am short on time but wanted to clarify this.

Even the presumptions that I knew were possible (That someone would likely react to my comments as they did) I held somewhat in abeyance and knew this would be tricky. I[i]meant[/i] none of it brother.

This will likely need further clarification later, but for know am thinking along the lines of Jesus giving inference to the 'dogs', a bit of the test and 'provoking' if you will.

You only proved human nature.
None of us sinned in our response.
It is human to react to stimulus.
You provided the stimulus, I reacted with out sin.

 2008/11/21 17:38Profile









 Re:

"Ben, what was your instant, initial reaction to my comment? Honestly?"

crsschk, Why do you say "honestly?" as if the initial question was not enough? Is it because you think I will lie like you did? Do you swear oaths? Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no, no.

If I remember correctly my initial reaction was adrenaline. This is obviously an irrational reaction because even though you were displaying murder with your words how could you express it physically though a computer? Not at all. Since my body is not rational there is nothing sinful about that reaction. Even if I experienced temptation to sin after reading your harsh words, that would not mean that there was anything wrong with me. Jesus was able to be tempted also and was 100% holy in every way.

Since you have been so careless with your words and are trying to justify it by [explaining]* the pharisaical nature of your intention (for Jesus did not intend to cause the woman to stumble for God does not tempt anyone but the hypocrites who wanted to cover their sin at the expense of one who had not wronged them always sought to cause the Lord Jesus to stumble in his speech.) you should know that my next reaction was to consider whether they, your words, were true and fitting, for let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. I was tempted by unloving thoughts toward you which I do not believe I gave in to but if I had it would be my own fault and not the fault of the temptation for man can resist temptation otherwise God is unjust for punishing him. If you continue to be cunning (which is the cunning? the first post or the justification? How can we know?) you will probably make people cry and things like that rather than convert them with your intelligence.

I also considered that perhaps you had been mistreated by people who have disagreed with you and condemned your honest questioning and that perhaps you thought God was that way with you not knowing the nature of the wisdom from above. So i thought maybe you had a hardened heart because of unforgiveness and that was why you lashed out at me. So I was going to ask you about that but I didn't want to pry into your life without your permission so I left out the question. However, now I do not know what to think of you at all because you have been deceitful. But I hope that we can be reconciled at some point.

Ben

*[originally had "bragging about" instead of explaining, divulging, etc. I could have and should have been more careful with my choice of words and my discernment of your attitude. If I don't know you were bragging then I can't just say it like you were without knowing - That is an example of carelessness which is not Adam's fault or God's fault or my DNA's fault or even your fault, though you could use it to prove your point if it was. I repent of my careless slanderous wording]
**more**
You should not try to lead people into stumbling and you should not utter deceit (no deceit was found in Jesus' mouth) and justifying deceit by comparing your motives to Paul and the Lord Jesus is teaching other men to use deceit on top of having used it yourself.

 2008/11/21 18:31









 Re:

Quote:
There was nothing sinful about Jesus' body.

Up until the cross I agree with you. However, the purpose of Christ coming was to come into a sin free body that He may become sin for us, thus fulfilling the requirements of the law and all righteousness.

[b]The body[/b]: Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

[b]made sin for us[/b]: 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 2008/11/21 19:43









 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
There was nothing sinful about Jesus' body.


Up until the cross I agree with you. However, the purpose of Christ coming was to come into a sin free body that He may become sin for us, thus fulfilling the requirements of the law and all righteousness.

[b]The body[/b]: Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

[b]made sin for us[/b]: 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


You sound like this: Can a man enter his mother's womb a second time?
Think about it. Sin is transgression. Transgression is intangible. If Jesus himself, physical body and all, [b]literaly became wrongdoing[/b] then nobody would have been able to see him on the cross and the dying man who asked to be remembered by him would have gotten no reply because SIN, LAWLESSNESS, WRONGDOING, etc. can't talk! If he [b]WAS[/b] sin then what? No one in the world was sinning at that moment because all the sin was on the cross? Don't you think the context of the passage and the whole gospel makes it more appropriate to understand that he became a SACRIFICE FOR sin. our sins.

When he said "this is my body" - well it wasn't, it was bread. You can't take everything literally.

Isn't it understood that the bread was [b]like[/b] his body which he gave for us?

In the same way isn't it [b]like[/b] our sins were nailed to a tree? Because of what Jesus did, it is! But you can't [b]literally[/b] hold down sin and nail it to a tree because it is not that type of noun, it is intangible and represents the entirety of disobedience, wrongdoing, etc. to disobey is just a verb, like to sin is a verb. Sin, the noun, means collectively all the times that people performed that verb - aka disobeyed. A perfect man was on the cross. He didn't become sinful on the cross as if he had willed sin. Sin comes through choice, it's not a virus or a skin color or a handicap, it's a choice. You can use things like viruses or genetics or handicaps as [b]analogies or metaphors[/] for sin but sin is not a tangible thing.

[edit]

I thought of another example that is more fitting. Remember the scapegoat ritual? I'm sorry I don't recall where it is in the bible offhand but the sins of the people were laid on the goat and it was sent off into the wilderness?
Were they really? No. But through faith which would lead to repentance and not sinning it would've been like they actually walked off with the goat. Where did your sins go? Well since that goat walked off I haven't "had" any sins. See? The eucharist, the bread, it's by faith not by bread. The goat? It's by faith, not by how far away the goat is when it dies. Same with Jesus in this verse you brought up. If sin had actually been killed (if that were possible) then no one would be able to sin but it's not literal it's by faith.

 2008/11/21 21:09
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
DeepThinker wrote:
Quote:
There was nothing sinful about Jesus' body.

Up until the cross I agree with you. However, the purpose of Christ coming was to come into a sin free body that He may become sin for us, thus fulfilling the requirements of the law and all righteousness.

First of all, a body can not have sin literally in it.
It is what one chooses to do with the body that makes it sinful.
Jesus had flesh just as we do now, with the same kind of blod, human blood.
The only difference between Jesus body was that He never used it for sin.
The only difference between Jesus blood was that it represents a holy life.

We have used our body for sin and our blood represents a defiled life.
All by choice, not by heredity, inheritance, imputation, or by curse.

Quote:
[b]made sin for us[/b]: 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Literally, made a sin offering for us.

 2008/11/21 21:30Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Ben.

Just to reiterate, I knew this was both dangerous and tricky ...

Quote:
"Ben, what was your instant, initial reaction to my comment? Honestly?"

crsschk, Why do you say "honestly?" as if the initial question was not enough? Is it because you think I will lie like you did? Do you swear oaths? Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no, no



Hope you can bear with me here as I bob and weave in and out of this ... (Not deceitfully just in going back and forth).

Depending on your perspective and my intention a great deal will turn. If you were to take my words in one sense they are not a lie at all;

[i]And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.[/i] 1Co 6:11

Rather than copy over all the preceding verses, the list of past tense accusations (Hopefully they are indeed past tense) but one instance that may be applicable;

[i]Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?[/i]

Just want to leave that hanging in suspension ...

"Arrogant" "Ignorant" ...Surely we all still have these traits and [i]Thou (You) fool[/i] is a very provoking word, one that I hesitated to use. But, as you stated;

Quote:
If I remember correctly my initial reaction was adrenaline.



Precisely. But it wasn't the rush of adrenaline that you might get from say riding on a roller coaster ... I did mention that this wasn't easy? But wasn't your adrenaline a rush of anger, frankly?

Why?

Now as you go on in the rest of your post there is the other aspect, which is presumption. Why do we [i]instantly[/i] [i]presume[/i] wrong doing- wrong meaning- wrong motives? An intent to injure, all by supposing and presuming that was really the case? Why isn't our [i]reaction[/i] one of curiosity, of questioning? You see this is one of the very focal points of the disputes that often take place here in this very forum; A request that we ask a question or for a clarification but ... What do we normally ... "naturally" do? It is the old adage of 'Shoot first ask questions later' ;-).

Brother this is that nature that is 'built in', built in to us, the sinful nature. [i]However[/i] we got it, [i]we got it[/i];

[i]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/i] Rom 7:18

Why? And moreover and even more importantly, [i]why not[/i]?


So coming back to the suspending verse;

[i]Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?[/i]

This is how we ought to be it would be agreed and I would like to think we are far more progressed than those who have no controlling factor, no umpire, no resistance and refrain, in other words, no Holy Spirit.

Quote:
You should not try to lead people into stumbling and you should not utter deceit (no deceit was found in Jesus' mouth) and justifying deceit by comparing your motives to Paul and the Lord Jesus is teaching other men to use deceit on top of having used it yourself.



But is this what I was really after? [i]Why do ye not rather take wrong?[/i]

No harm intended brother, am just really digging down heard into what makes us tick, something to consider in a real answer to your original question.

And I do apologize.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/11/21 21:51Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: "O man"

Hi Logic,

Quote:
You only proved human nature.



Which is ... [i]inherently[/i], good or evil?


Quote:
None of us sinned in our response.



Out loud ... ? Can you speak for "all of us" if none of "us" is one and the same?


Quote:
It is human to react to stimulus.



Then why did Jesus not react the way we do? Because He had a differnt [i]nature[/i]?

Quote:
You provided the stimulus, I reacted with out sin.




Earlier you stated:

[i]"Come on!!!

I could say the same for those who claim there is a so called "sin nature"

What? We are created with a nature that the creator hates.

You fool. How ignorant and arrogant can you be?[/i]"

Are you sure? Are you re-quoting my earlier statement or turning it back upon me? Serious, honest, questions brother, no malice or 'cunning' and it is quite alright - there is no injury or offendness or presumptions of any kind, no emotions or otherwise. This was really all one experiment to be frank, it wasn't all that much thought out before hand. Back to presumptions again ...


For what it is worth I approach just about everything here as if writing on a mirror and it is always interesting to me to find myself as I go along. What I am thinking and often attempts to get others thinking doesn't mean I have anything really all figured out, quite the opposite!

After observing and participating here for 5 some odd years it is really an education. How much we miss by being somewhat trapped by this form of communication that would otherwise be less - mis-construed (to really butcher the language) if we were face to face, Brethren to Brethren. On the other hand ... If I had attempted this experiment in person ... I could very well be wearing an ice pack right now

:-P

But with just a bit of imagination, what might have a live comment and response have emphasised?This subject matter I thought a different approach, even one completely different than my ... disposition, might put a perspective, an angle on it, something different than we are used to hearing. The usual ways of pitting scripture against scripture, concept against concept. I didn't even have in mind anything that has been attempted in years past or the argument itself, just whether is this really true? Do we indeed have this 'nature'? Or is it the phraseology that gets us a bit up in arms?

A couple of things occurred reading back through the responses.

Job.

[i]Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason?[/i] Job 1:9 (ESV)

What a question in isolation! Of all that he went through and of course, his [i]friends[/i]. To take off on that a bit ... Sometimes I wonder at just what this forum on any given day must really look like to an outside observer. The page loads up and there are ten postings. What do they often have in common? Of late and in a general sense there seems to be a lot of [i]churning[/i], a lot of [i]agitation[/i], something underneath it all. We are drawing things out of each other, but I wonder if we do not even take notice. Something of that [i]nature[/i] about us?

Jobs friends. How similar to us here at times, but what about them? What about all that they had to say to him in his suffering? Job was a righteous man, 'blameless' to that certain extent ...

[i]"Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"[/i]

In the end ...

[i]Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. [/i] Job 42:1-6

These are some of the most profound statements in all of scripture. But what do they have to do with this 'nature' ...

It seems we have a real trouble being [i]told[/i]. Told that we are sinful. Evil. [i]You, being evil[/i] ... [i]Your father, the devil[/i]. The reactions - [i]We have never been enslaved ... Our father is Abraham[/i].


[i]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:[/i] Rom 5:12


[b]Passed

G1330[/b]
διέρχομαι
dierchomai
[i]dee-er'-khom-ahee[/i]

From G1223 and G2064; to [i]traverse[/i] (literally): - come, depart, go (about, abroad, every where, over, through, throughout), pass (by, over, through, throughout), pierce through, travel, walk through.



[i]Traverse[/i] and [i]through[/i] or [i]throughout[/i].

[i]The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?[/i] Jer 17:9

Through and through seems the implication.

All these things, the churning and agitation, penchants for politics and forecasting, and ten thousand other things that we can be preoccupied with. Our hearts and heads and thoughts. Jobs friends and Job himself. This 'human nature'. The dislike of being told [i]what[/i] we are. Maybe it boils down to just one thing after all,

Who do we think we are? And where do we get off telling God (Or each other for that matter) that we are not what we are deserving. Even if we don't come right out and say it. Death is the end of all argument and the payment for that which we are both 'born into' and yet also responsible for. We are without excuse and without blaming.

[i]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:[/i] Rom 1:20

[i]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/i] Rom 9:20

"O man" -

[i]He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?[/i] Mic 6:8




_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/11/22 1:22Profile





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