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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:

Of course this is tooooooo much scripture to read and ask for bread, but if you will read and ask for bread you won't get a stone, but the bread of life Himself.

Like we haven't prayerfully read the Scriptures before.

 2008/11/26 14:16Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
AbideinHim wrote:
Ben,

What if you took a pig and decided that you are going to make a clean animal out of him. You bathed him, dressed him up in a white suit, and taught him all the proper manners of how to stay out of the mud. But what would happen when you turn your back on the pig? He would head for the mud pit. Why? Because he is a pig by nature.

A sinner can be educated on proper morals. He can decide that he is going to do only good works. He can will to do only that which is good and keep away from the bad, but he will not be able to do what he desires, because he is a sinner by nature, and sooner or later his true colors are going to come out.

If a man that is not a Christian could outwardly choose to do that which is right, and outwardly not sin, he would not be acceptable to God, because inwardly he is still full of sin and all kinds of uncleaness. Your choosing to do right will only get you so far. Sooner or later you will have to face the fact that the things that I want to do, I don't do, and the things I know not to do, those are the things that I continually do. (Romans 7).

Only that which is born of God can overcome the world. We don't only need to have our sins forgiven, but we must have a new birth to enter into the kingdom of God. We must be born from above, given a new nature that is created in righteousness and true holiness.

We are only good, because He that is holy dwells within us. Just willing to be good is not going to do it. Our choices are important and we would should choose that which we know to be the will of God. Without Him we can do nothing. We can only live the Christian life in victory by our faith and dependence in Christ. It is by grace that we stand. True Christianity is not your will power overcoming sin. It is not mind over matter. Only by faith in Christ can we overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil.
Mike

This proves nothing that mankind is BORN with a "sin nature"

Quote:
A sinner sins because he is a sinner by nature. Many scriptures have been given by our brothers on this subject.

The term sinner implyes one sinnes.
You imple that it is a state of being.
Where to you find this in the Scriptures?

Just as one can not be called a doctor unless he does something to be a doctor.
One must employ themselves in sin to be called a sinner.

Quote:
No man can even come to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit is drawing him.

That implies that God will not draw all men, which His Word tells us that HE does.
It also implies that God does not want to draw all mankind to Himself.

Quote:
A sinner has a will, but it is not free, it is a fallen will.

No one has proven that yet.

A will is a concept of the mind, it can not be fallen.

Ones will is usually effected by it's affections.
The choice that one make will usually follow your affections, even though they do not have to by necessity.
Your decisions are effected by your affections so that you might do what you have favor towards.
However, one is always able to do what is right when the affections are wrong.

Quote:
True and perfect salvation saves man's will

WRONG!!!
salvation saves man's soul, his person, his consciousness.

Quote:
It is important to understand the difference between the will of a sinner and that of a born again Christian.

True, one has the correct affections.

Quote:
"In salvation, we are saved not because we want to be saved but because God wants to save us; and so is it to be throughout our lives.

God want all men to be saved, we must comply to the conditions which HE has set for salvation.
The reason that all mankind is condemnd is becaus ethey refuse to comply.
QUIT BLAIMING NATURE!!!

If it is our nature, we are not at fault.

Quote:
"Hence when the Holy Spirit convicts a man of sin, that conviction is such that the man would not have a word to say even should God condemn him to hell.

God uses His law to convict.
[b]Rom 1:18-20[/b] [color=990000]for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness (they know the truth but suppress it);
[b]:19[/b] because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
[b]:20[/b] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:[/color]
[v]Rom 2:14-15[/b] [color=990000]The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law.
[b]:1[/b]5 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.[/color]

The reason that men are condemned is not becaus Holy Spirit hasn't attempted to convit them, but they denied God's authority of command.

Quote:
Only the Holy Spirit can teach us these truths, but if we are close minded and are holding on to our own opinions about the Word, then we will be resisting the truth. One of the characteristics of receiving the truth is having a teachable spirit. You need to face the possibility that maybe these other brothers and sisters just might have more light on this subject than you do.

This can go both ways.
It is up to us to find the reasonable truth.

Sin nature is unreasonable.
It puts the blaim on God and frees man of any responcability.
For who can go against their nature which God has given them brom birth.
Adam did not give this so called nature, because God must have made the law to pass on natures of sin.


As for the rest of Nee, be aware and go to the link above.

 2008/11/26 14:18Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I have already proven that Adam was the same as all mankind are today.



How in the world do you come to this conclusion?

Prior to his sin, there was no death. Look at what God says to Adam-
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for [b]in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.[/b]"

If Adam was already going to die as you propose, then why did God warn him about an action that would bring death, or as the Hebrew says, "dying you shall die"?

Consider these two verses and tell me what event took place that produced a change in how Adam and Eve were with one another-

Gen 2:25 And [b]the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed[/b].

Gen 3:7 Then [b]the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths[/b].

Why were they suddenly ashamed to be "naked" in front of one another?

Also why is it that not until [i]after[/i] the sin of Adam there is no mention of a curse or any ill effects upon Adam, Eve, and their descendants?

Last of all, how come there are no "perfect" people that we can observe today if all men are born like Adam?

You might want to be careful how you answer that last question. I have a feeling that you will answer it the same way that Pelagius did by saying that there are perfect people, and that my friend would be heresy as Scripture says clearly that "all have sinned" and that use of all means all.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/11/26 14:22Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Why wouldn't God grant the ability to perform that which He commands? To not would be tyrannical



Logic,

Again, I have already pointed out to you instances where God commands the impossible and does not grant the ability.

The Lord commanded the Israelites to keep the entire law perfectly; however, Paul states nobody can be justified by the law, which means it must be impossible to keep it perfectly.

The very fact that it was command, yet impossible, and that we do not have the ability to keep it perfectly is the why Paul cites it as our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and not a means of justification, in Galatians.

Thoughts?

-Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/26 14:29Profile









 Re:

hi roaring lamb
someone who sinned has cause to be ashamed!
You can try to cover it up with the fig leaves of sin nature but no, you sinned, you blew it. You need a sacrifice not a man-made excuse!
God knew what Adam would choose. It doesn't say that physical death is a punishment.

 2008/11/26 14:38
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
It doesn't say that physical death is a punishment.



Actually yes it does, and that is the point the Hebrew brings out.

The phrase "you shall surely die" is the Hebrew word "muth", here is the definition for it-
H4191
מוּת
mûth
BDB Definition:
1) to die, kill, have one executed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to die
1a2) to die (as penalty), be put to death
1a3) to die, perish (of a nation)
1a4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
1b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
1c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death
1d) (Hophal)
1d1) to be killed, be put to death
1d1a) to die prematurely

Seems to me that it indeed meant "physical" death, which was not mentioned until the fall. That may also be why man was to be vegetarian prior to the fall, and then omnivorous afterwards.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/11/26 14:46Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

benjoseph wrote:
rbanks you've got your mind on earthly things instead of spiritual things.



I have posted a lot on this thread that you seem not to care about replying to. I believe your mind was already made up before you started this thread.

There has also been some excellent posts on here explaining the sin nature by godly men that have walk with God more than us.

Watchmen Knee wrote a lot to the church in China and much while He was in prison for 20 years, he suffered much for preaching the pure gospel of Jesus Christ.

I originally started posting in this thread giving you the benefit of humility in seeking understanding concerning the sin nature.

Now that I have seen your replies and no replies to the one's that didn't fit in to your agenda of why you really started the thread I have no desire to continue on in something that is unfruitful.

I believe the scripture says that pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. God does not walk with the proud nor the scornful. God resists the proud but he gives grace to the humble.

I do not believe that the burden of the proof is in "can you prove the sin nature" but can you dare prove that we don't have a sin nature. The bible says that all have sinned. The bible speaks about sin and Jesus coming to save us from sin.

My conclusions now after participating in this thread is that it is arrogance to even suggest to others that we need to prove the sin nature because it is like saying that you have a superior knowledge over us. Although I have tried to see your line of reasoning you desire not to see any of mine. As long as I'm seeing what you want me to see then I'm really trying but you refuse to try to see what I am saying.

It is like saying can you prove that all are sinners when everybody sins. The sinner sins because it is his nature to sin. The bible says that the only nature that does not sin is the born of God nature and Jesus is the only one born on earth with the God nature. We can only receive this nature through Jesus Christ in the new birth.

Brother Ben, I have enjoyed the many contributions to this thread though, and I am not sorry for contributing what little I did, because we can all learn and grow with a mind set on pleasing God. I do hope in the future though when in doubt about something don't readily accept anything that appeals to your senses and also don't close your mind to what others are saying even if it is not going in line with your own reasoning.

There is much for us all to learn but remember knowledge puffeth up but charity edifies. May the grace of God be yours to the riches of His Glory!

 2008/11/26 15:01Profile









 Re:

Logic wrote: What proof do you have that Adam was any different than we are today.
One difference: Adam was not born of a woman. We were. He was not born of a woman or 'creature sperm' as you so aptly put it.
Logic wrote: That which is conceived of the flesh is flesh (just starting ones life over without the purpose of righteousness in the power if the Holy Spirit); and that which is conceived of the Spirit is what matters.

If those who are conceived of flesh are flesh what then is Adam who was not conceived this way?
Logic wrote: body not affected after the fall.
Before the fall, before their sin, the bodies of Adam and Eve did not experience physical death. You can't argue that physical death, as in producing a physical corpse, was realized BEFORE THE FALL.
Also we cannot deny that the flood in Noah's was not a physical judgement. Otherwise continuing to physically live would have been an option.

.....................................

Have at it!!

Romans 5 (King James Version)
Romans 5
6 For when we were YET WITHOUT STRENGTH, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when WE WERE ENEMIES (to God), we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 WHEREFORE, AS BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, AND DEATH BY SIN, SO DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED
13 (FOR UNTIL THE LAW SIN WAS IN THE WORLD: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 NEVERTHELESS DEATH REIGNED FROM ADAM TO MOSES, EVEN OVER THEM WHO HAD NOT SINNED AFTER THE SIMILITUDE OF ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one JUDGEMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN TO CONDEMNATION; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let's take verse 13 at face value. Sin was in the world before the law but was not imputed since the law did not exist. "Nevertheless" the next verse states "death reigned even in those who did not sin in the similitude of Adam". We know from the above scripture that there was no law in Noah's day but there was sin present. Sin is present, but not imputed, yet it is judged by the flood to the point where God seemingly regreted ever creating mankind.... this is confounding. Paul says unequivicolly 'all have sinned' in verse 12 but it was not imputed. This would suggest to me that sin not imputed is still sin counted in judgment in, at the very least, physical death in the case of Noah's day.

 2008/11/26 15:06









 Re:

rbanks,
I will show you what happens if I reply to everything. [haha, edit: not like "Grr...I'll show him..."] Then hopefully you'll consider giving a one sentence definition of this sin nature and then we can see if you have proof or not. Why do you call me brother and then accuse me of pride, arrogance, agendas, etc? Should I word the thread title differently?

Quote:
I have posted a lot on this thread that you seem not to care about replying to.

I think there is a more direct way than writing a commentary on the entire bible for you when you already have your mind made up. You won't even be [b]able[/b] to understand what the passages mean until we actually get somewhere.
Quote:
I believe your mind was already made up before you started this thread.

just about. It actually got more "made up" when I started considering everyone's responses.
Quote:
There has also been some excellent posts on here explaining the sin nature

No there have not. Those posts are irrational because sin nature is irrational.
Quote:
by godly men that have walk with God more than us.

That's just a "high place"
Quote:
Watchmen Knee wrote a lot to the church in China and much while He was in prison for 20 years, he suffered much for preaching the pure gospel of Jesus Christ.

Not if he preached that Jesus died to save us from the way we were born. I'm not trying to condemn him but lot's of people suffer for what they believe not to mention how or where they were born. It doesn't prove that everything they said was true. Islamic Jihadists suffer for their beliefs. Doesn't change anything about the truth.
Quote:
I originally started posting in this thread giving you the benefit of humility in seeking understanding concerning the sin nature.

I'm humble if I might agree with you?
Quote:
Now that I have seen your replies and no replies to the one's that didn't fit in to your agenda of why you really started the thread

love is suspicious?
Quote:
I have no desire to continue on in something that is unfruitful.

You have no desire to allow it to be fruitful.
Quote:
I believe the scripture says that pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Yes it does.
Quote:
God does not walk with the proud nor the scornful.

That sounds right too.
Quote:
God resists the proud but he gives grace to the humble.

Yes I remember when that happened to me in the balthasar thread. I haven't been trying to hurt your feelings rbanks. Why are you talking like a hypocrite now? I'm not trying to condemn you, I'm just being honest. If you don't want to discuss it you don't have to pretend it's because you are virtuous and I am not.
Quote:
I do not believe that the burden of the proof is in "can you prove the sin nature" but can you dare prove that we don't have a sin nature.

"can you dare"? That's manipulative bully language. You can't even define it with a rational sentence that will hold up under examination. You want me to disprove something you can't define?
Quote:
The bible says that all have sinned.

When in the world did I disagree with that? How can you possibly have been paying attention and then act like that contradicts anything I've said?
Quote:
The bible speaks about sin

I've been speaking a lot about it too! :)
Quote:
and Jesus coming to save us from sin.

I don't understand how you think you have any idea of what I've been saying. What do you think I think Jesus came to do?
Quote:
My conclusions now after participating in this thread is that it is arrogance to even suggest to others that we need to prove the sin nature because it is like saying that you have a superior knowledge over us.

That's childish. Anyone who knows something rbanks doesn't is arrogant? Is your self esteem the cornerstone of all virtue? Look at what you're saying. You should blush over this one.
Quote:
Although I have tried to see your line of reasoning you desire not to see any of mine.

I see right through your line of reasoning. You can't even define your line of reasoning. Give me one sentence and we'll look at it until you're satisfied or give up.
Quote:
As long as I'm seeing what you want me to see then I'm really trying but you refuse to try to see what I am saying.

Not sure I understand the whole sentence but a few days ago I was on a crusade to prove "what you are saying". Since you say it's arrogant for me to even suggest that I know something you don't, there's no way you'll even consider that maybe I do. Therefore your only "option" is to assume that you know something I don't and since I disagree I must not be paying attention. I'm not making this stuff up. We could go line by line through every single one of your posts but it wouldn't matter because of your mindset.
Quote:
It is like saying can you prove that all are sinners when everybody sins.

I don't understand this sentence entirely but since you don't have a clue what I've been saying your analogy is bound to be way off. Everyone Sins. By definition (sin requiring consent!) sinners are sinners by choice. It's like you don't understand the definition of the word or the fact that you could've NOT chosen to sin in all the ways you sinned. You think Jesus died to console you for something you were born with? I don't think you think that but that's where it leads.
Quote:
The sinner sins because it is his nature to sin.

It's his nature to sin because he chose to sin. It's one or the other. Fire's not gonna fall on the nature excuse.
Quote:
The bible says that the only nature that does not sin is the born of God nature and Jesus is the only one born on earth with the God nature.

The word became flesh. Jesus was a man with the same "nature" as us. Do you think not sinning is involuntary? You can't know what repentance is if you think the "new birth" is devoid of voluntary choice.
Quote:
We can only receive this nature through Jesus Christ in the new birth.

Yes. How? By magic? No! By faith! Faith that's forced on us? No! Faith that is consentual! That's why it is accounted as righteousness.
Quote:
Brother Ben, I have enjoyed the many contributions to this thread though, and I am not sorry for contributing what little I did, because we can all learn and grow with a mind set on pleasing God.


Quote:
I do hope in the future though when in doubt about something don't readily accept anything that appeals to your senses and also don't close your mind to what others are saying even if it is not going in line with your own reasoning.

You are the one talking like an arrogant man because of what I explained before. You, by default, assume that you know more than me just because I disagree with you. You assume you understand the scripture and I don't. You assume I'm not thinking clearly and blindly believing things but I'm not. That's why I said you're talking like a hypocrite. I know you're not trying to be malicious or anything but if you refuse to show some humility in this area you will be wide open to all sorts of temptations of pride and judgment [edit: by judgment i mean prejudice, not God's condemnation] and nasty things [edit: feelings and attitudes] like that.
Quote:
There is much for us all to learn but remember

Just not from me?
Quote:
knowledge puffeth up but charity edifies.


Quote:
May the grace of God be yours to the riches of His Glory!

I'm sorry to have to say it but the blessing sounds patronizing in this context. I'm not fuming mad or anything. Do you really want to do this line by line? I don't think that'll get us anywhere. If you want me to show you that it's not arrogant, proud, sneaky, etc. for me to disprove sin nature, orginal sin, inherited sin, etc. then provide your definition of it.

I said you had your mind on earthly things instead of spiritual and I was right. You can be offended because there's no way I could know something you don't. Or we could take a look at it. I didn't just say that cause it sounded like a holy man thing to say, like if I sound wise or whatever then I must me right! I meant it because I could see it. If you don't like that then I can't really force you.

In summary, you've shown partiality to yourself over me. I'm not real mad or anything. I hope you stop. And I'd like to discuss the sin nature doctrine if you are again willing.

[rbanks, some people here are trying to make me out to be malicious and since you already felt that I wasn't be fair to you I just wanted to reassure you that I don't have any ill will toward you at all. I hope that you will not be offended by what I've written. Some of it is blunt. But that's ok for men to be blunt with eachother. I'm not trying to make you cry or anything mean like that. I hope you'll not be tempted to read this as if I'm being haughty and cruel. You have scriptural permission to be blunt with me also. I hope we can work this out. I don't want there to be any hard feelings between us. - Ben]

 2008/11/26 16:01
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Brothers.....


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/11/26 16:26Profile





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