rbanks you've got your mind on earthly things instead of spiritual things.
| 2008/11/26 0:00|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Ponder|
rbanks you've got your mind on earthly things instead of spiritual things.
On the contrary it is very much these sort of sentiments that are the ruin of this post start to finish.
What you have started here is a [i]mandate[/i], in essence [i]prove me wrong[/i];
Does anyone believe they can show me directly from scripture and reasoning from the scripture that we
INHERITED a SINFUL [b]NATURE[/b] from Adam
or any kind of [b]INABILITY[/b] to be SINLESS (from birth OR youth to death) that results from our NATURE?
I am concerned it is from gnosticism and that it is blasphemy.
This was the original [i]threat[/i] and the posit that it couldn't be done, a dare to suggest otherwise. And being the case from there on you and Logic have set yourselves up as the great kings of this notion attempting to slay anyone who suggests any scripture or reasoning to be considered. That which 'fit's' to your positing and can be attempted to be thwarted is met with a counter but that which puts a challenge to your notions it met with silence.
But that is not as bad as those things you attempt to [i]force[/i] into meaning that are quite far from the majority's thoughts, the amount of presumption here is quite alarming and it is making this whole matter one great muddle.
I would also forewarn anyone happening upon this to be on their guard. When there is a mandate that will not [i]pause[/i] for consideration, slow down long enough to think through legitimate questions, read through others postings with an unbiased mind but has a ready answer ... Beware.
There is also a very unsettling blending of poorly defined and poorly understood attributes of just what constitutes [i]gnosticism[/i] - In fact there is much that is being posited here that would find shades of [url=http://www.answers.com/topic/manichaeism]Manichaeism[/url] woven through, even if unintentionally.
Unfortunately by trying to pour meaning and intentions into what others are saying this has become a great muddle of confusion. There is much angst and arrogance, pride and lack of humility. There is a lot of emoting but a failure to recognize the complexity of human creatures, what we are made up of. That we are [i]prone[/i] to many things, that we are spiritual as well as actual, physical beings. That we have a bent as well as a disease, a responsibility and a culpability. It is not so simple as these two would make it seem.
It is highly ironic that they are more so presenting the case opposite by their response and proving more of the latter than the former.
| 2008/11/26 9:36||Profile|
Ben and Logic,
A sinner sins because he is a sinner by nature. Many scriptures have been given by our brothers on this subject.
No man can even come to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit is drawing him. A sinner has a will, but it is not free, it is a fallen will. "True and perfect salvation saves man's will." (Nee) It is important to understand the difference between the will of a sinner and that of a born again Christian.
"In salvation, we are saved not because we want to be saved but because God wants to save us; and so is it to be throughout our lives. We need to see that aside from what God does through us, all other activities, however commendable they may be, are utterly non-efficacious. If we fail to learn this life principle at the initial stage of salvation, we shall encounter endless defeats thereafter." (Nee)
"Hence when the Holy Spirit convicts a man of sin, that conviction is such that the man would not have a word to say even should God condemn him to hell. Then when that man is shown by God His definite plan in the cross of Christ he will gladly accept it and express his readiness to receive the salvation of God." (Nee)
Only the Holy Spirit can teach us these truths, but if we are close minded and are holding on to our own opinions about the Word, then we will be resisting the truth. One of the characteristics of receiving the truth is having a teachable spirit. You need to face the possibility that maybe these other brothers and sisters just might have more light on this subject than you do.
This excerpt from "The Spiritual Man" sheds much light on the subject.
THE ANALYSIS OF THE SOUL--THE WILL
A BELIEVER'S WILL -- Watchman Nee
A man's will is his organ for decision making. To want or not to want, to choose or not to choose are the typical operations of the will. It is his "helm" by which he sails upon the sea of life. The will of a man can be taken as his real self, for it truthfully represents him. Its action is the action of the man. When we declare "I will," it is actually our volition which wills. When we say "I want, I decide," again it is our volition which wants and decides. Our volition acts for the entire man. Our emotion merely expresses bow we feel; our mind simply tells us what we think; but our will communicates what we want. Hence, it is the most influential component of our entire person. It is deeper than emotion and mind. So in seeking spiritual growth the believer must not neglect the volitional element in him.
Many commit the error of treating "religion" as a matter of emotion; they believe that it merely soothes and gladdens men's emotions. Others insist that "religion" ought to be compatible with reason and not overly emotional; only a kind of rational religion is acceptable to these. What both these groups do not know is that true religion per se does not aim at emotion or reason but aims to impart life to man's spirit and to lead his will to be completely yielded to God's will. Unless our "religious" experience produces in us a willing acceptance of the whole counsel of God, it is very superficial. What can it profit a man if along his spiritual pathway the will exhibits no proper sign of grace? Or if the will is not touched? True and perfect salvation saves man's will. Whatever is not sufficiently thorough to embrace the salvation of man's volition is but vanity. All pleasant feelings and all lucid thoughts belong exclusively to the external realm. Man may experience joy, comfort and peace in believing God, he may understand His majesty and amass much wonderful knowledge; but does he possess any genuine union with Him if his will is not united with God's? The joining of wills forms the only true union. Consequently, upon receiving life the believer should be attentive not only to his intuition but likewise to his volition.
A FREE WILL
In discussing man and his will we particularly should bear in mind that he exercises a free will. This means that man is sovereign, that he has a sovereign will. What be disapproves of should not be forced on him, what he opposes should not be coerced. Free will signifies that man can choose what he wants. He is not a mechanical toy to be run by others. He is responsible for all. his actions; the will within controls all matters both inside and outside him. He is not governed automatically by an external force; rather, he houses a principle within him which determines his acts.
This was the state of man when created by God. The man the Creator fashioned was not something mechanical; for it will be recalled that God said to him: "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die" (Gen. 2.16-17). How did God command him? God persuaded, prohibited, yet never coerced. If Adam were disposed to listen and not eat the forbidden fruit, it would be Adam who so willed. But if he would not listen and would eat, even God would not restrain him. That is free will. God put this responsibility of eating or not eating upon man for him to choose according to his untrammeled will. God did not create an Adam who was incapable of sinning, rebelling or stealing, since to have done so would have been to make man into a piece of machinery. God could advise, prohibit and command; however, the responsibility of bearing or Dot lay with man. Out of love, God gave the command beforehand; out of righteousness, he would not force man to do what the latter did not wish to do. For man to obey God, it requires a willingness on his part, because God never compels him. He could verily employ sundry means to make man willing, nevertheless, until he gives his consent God will not make His way into the man. This is an exceedingly vital principle. We shall see later how the Creator never works against this principle, whereas the evil spirits consistently do. By this can we distinguish what is of God and what is not.
THE FALL AND SALVATION
Unfortunately, mankind has fallen. By this plunge man's unfettered volition suffered prodigious damage. We may say that there are two massive contradictory wills throughout the universe. On the one side stands the holy and perfect will of God; on the other is arrayed the defiled, defiling and opposing will of Satan. In between subsists the sovereign, independent, free will of man. When man listens to the devil and rebels against God he seems to render an eternal "no" to God's will and an abiding "yes" to Satan's. Since man employs his volition to choose the will of the devil, his volition falls captive to the devil. Therefore all his acts are governed by Satan's will. Until he overturns his early subjection, man's will remains unquestionably oppressed by the enemy power.
In this fallen position and condition man is fleshly. This flesh-by which his will, together with his other organs, is ruled-is thoroughly corrupted. How can anything pleasing to God ever result from such a darkened will? Even his questing after God springs from the realm of the flesh and therefore lacks any spiritual value. He may invent many ways of worshipping God at this time, yet all are his own ideas, all are "will-worship" (Col. 2.23 ASV), totally unacceptable to Him. Let us realise, then, that except a man receive God's new life and serve Him therein, every bit of service for God is but the work of the flesh. His intention to serve and even to suffer for Him is vain. Before he is regenerated, his will, even though it may be inclined towards good and God, is futile. For it is not what fallen man intends to do for God but how He Himself wishes man to do for Him that really counts in God's eyes. Man may devise and initiate countless notable works for God; nonetheless, if they do not originate with God they are nothing more than will-worship.
This is true with respect to salvation. When man lives carnally even his desire to be saved is not acceptable to God. We read in the Gospel of John that "to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (1.12-13). Man is not regenerated because he wills it so. He must be born of God. Nowadays Christians entertain the incorrect concept that if anyone wishes to be saved and seeks the way of life he undoubtedly will be a good disciple of Christ, for nothing can be better than this desire. God nonetheless affirms that in this matter of regeneration as well as in all other matters related to Him, the will of man is totally non-efficacious. Many children of God cannot understand why John I asserts the will of man to be non-effective whereas Revelation concludes by saying, "Let him who desires take the waiter of life without price" (22.17), as though man himself is entirely responsible for his salvation. And does not the Lord Jesus Himself give as explanation for the Jews not being saved the following declaration: "You refuse to come to me that you may have life" (John 5.40)? Here again, the responsibility for perdition apparently rests on man's will. Can the Bible be contradicting itself? Is there any special meaning behind these apparent inconsistencies? A comprehension of this matter will help us to appreciate what God requires, of us in our Christian life.
We will recall that God wishes no one to "perish but that all should reach repentance" because He "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Peter 3.9; 1 Tim. 2.4). No problem arises concerning whom God wants to save or whom He will let perish. The problem before us is, rather, what is the sinner's attitude towards God's will? If he decides to be a Christian because be is naturally inclined towards "religion," naturally contemptuous of the world or naturally influenced by his heredity, environment or family, he is as far from God and His life as are other sinners. If the sinner chooses to be a Christian at the moment of excitement or enthusiasm, he may not fare better than the rest. It all reduces itself to this: what is his attitude towards Gods will? God loves him, but will he accept this love? Christ calls him, but will he come? The Holy Spirit wants to give him life, but is he willing to be born? His will is useful only in choosing God's will. The question now is, and solely is, how does his volition react towards God's will?
Have we noticed the difference here? If man himself commences the search for salvation, he is yet perishing. Various founders of religions belong to this category. But if man, upon hearing the gospel, is willing to accept what God offers to him, he shall be saved. In the one case, man originates; in the other, he receives. The one does the willing himself while the other accepts God's will. John I speaks of man himself willing, whereas John 5 and Revelation 22 refer to man's accepting God's will. Hence no contradiction exists between these two; rather is there a very crucial lesson for us to learn. God is instructing us that in such a paramount and excellent matter as salvation anything which proceeds from self cannot be accepted but is rejected by Him. Indeed if we wish to advance in our spiritual development we must understand and bear in mind every vital principle God used in dealing with us at the time of regeneration. These initial principles betoken how we ought to continue in our spiritual life. What we have just now discussed constitutes one of the greatest of these principles. Anything which issues from us, that is from our flesh, is utterly unacceptable to God. Even should we seek such an indispensable and sublime a matter as salvation, our pursuit is nonetheless rejected. What we need unceasingly to remember is that God looks not at the appearance of a thing-whether good or bad, big or small but looks instead to see whence it originates, from Him or not. In salvation, we are saved not because we want to be saved but because God wants to save us; and so is it to be throughout our lives. We need to see that aside from what God does through us, all other activities, however commendable they may be, are utterly non-efficacious. If we fail to learn this life principle at the initial stage of salvation, we shall encounter endless defeats thereafter.
Moreover, according to the actual condition of man, while he is a sinner his will is rebellious against God. Therefore God must bring men to Himself as well as grant him new life. Now just as the will of man represents the man-for it is the essence of his being, so the divine will personifies God -it being His very life. To say that God will bring man to Himself is to say that He will bring man to His will. No doubt this takes a lifetime to fulfil, but even at the outset of salvation God commences working towards that end. Hence when the Holy Spirit convicts a man of sin, that conviction is such that the man would not have a word to say even should God condemn him to hell. Then when that man is shown by God His definite plan in the cross of Christ he will gladly accept it and express his readiness to receive the salvation of God. Thus do we observe that the first stage of salvation is essentially a salvation of the will. A sinner's faith and acceptance is but his desire to take the water of life and be saved. Similarly his opposition and resistance are his unwillingness to come to the Lord for life, and accordingly he perishes. The battle whether to be saved or to perish is fought out in the will of man. Man's original fall was due to the rebellion of his will against God's; and so his present salvation is effected by having his volition brought into obedience to God.
Although at the moment of new birth man's will is not yet fully united with God, his fallen will nonetheless is uplifted through his acceptance of the Lord Jesus and his denial of Satan, self, and the world. By believing God's Word and receiving His Spirit, his will is also renewed. After a man is born anew he obtains a new spirit, a new heart, and a new life; his will receives a new master and is henceforth under new management. If his will is obedient it becomes a part of the new life; if it resists, it turns out to be a formidable enemy to the new life. This renewed will is much more vital than the other parts of the soul. A mind may be misled and emotion can be inordinate, but the will can ill-afford to be wrong. For it to be wrong brings in serious consequences, since it is man's very self and controls all other organs of man. If it is wrong, God's will cannot be realized.
| 2008/11/26 11:57||Profile|
A sinner sins because he is a sinner by nature. Many scriptures have been given by our brothers on this subject.
No. No one practices homosexual behavior because they are a homosexual. They're called a homosexual because of what they choose to do. You're a sinner because "a sinner" = someone who sins. Since you sinned, by definition of the word sinner, you were a sinner. Sinner because you sinned. You blew it. You didn't have to be a sinner. But it was too late once you sinned. That's why we needed Jesus' atonement. If you could just blame your nature for your sins then God wouldn't have had to provide atonement with shed blood. He would've just understood it was your nature. It wasn't though. It was directly against your nature. He created you in his image and you blew it. That's why we need his mercy and forgiveness. Not just his patience and understanding.
| 2008/11/26 12:36|
I'm sorry to keep beating this horse, but...
Why did Jesus say it had to be granted to a man to even be able to come to him?
Could you please exegete this verse (John 6:65) for us?
You said your "answer" was:
A father loves his son and wants to find a suitable bride for him. Only a willing bride will be a suitable gift for his son.
If you are implying that the Father must make men willing to come to Christ, and that is what John 6:65 means, could you please expound on why they were not willing in the first place, and, secondly, why the Father must actively draw them, rather than waiting for them to choose on their own?
| 2008/11/26 13:08||Profile|
What if you took a pig and decided that you are going to make a clean animal out of him. You bathed him, dressed him up in a white suit, and taught him all the proper manners of how to stay out of the mud. But what would happen when you turn your back on the pig? He would head for the mud pit. Why? Because he is a pig by nature.
A sinner can be educated on proper morals. He can decide that he is going to do only good works. He can will to do only that which is good and keep away from the bad, but he will not be able to do what he desires, because he is a sinner by nature, and sooner or later his true colors are going to come out.
If a man that is not a Christian could outwardly choose to do that which is right, and outwardly not sin, he would not be acceptable to God, because inwardly he is still full of sin and all kinds of uncleaness. Your choosing to do right will only get you so far. Sooner or later you will have to face the fact that the things that I want to do, I don't do, and the things I know not to do, those are the things that I continually do. (Romans 7).
Only that which is born of God can overcome the world. We don't only need to have our sins forgiven, but we must have a new birth to enter into the kingdom of God. We must be born from above, given a new nature that is created in righteousness and true holiness.
We are only good, because He that is holy dwells within us. Just willing to be good is not going to do it. Our choices are important and we would should choose that which we know to be the will of God. Without Him we can do nothing. We can only live the Christian life in victory by our faith and dependence in Christ. It is by grace that we stand. True Christianity is not your will power overcoming sin. It is not mind over matter. Only by faith in Christ can we overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil.
| 2008/11/26 13:50||Profile|
How do we explain the will of God for Paul and God reaching to him and revealing Jesus Christ God's Son in Paul, God choosing Paul even in his mothers' womb, to fullfill the Word of God, a dispensation that we might have the same revelation. "The fulfillment of the Word of God for youward". All those that believe must come to God by His choice not ours.
This is the clencher: The will of God for Paul and Timothy and all who believe, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". This is the only preaching that will make a man perfect, that is, perfect in Christ.
Of course this is tooooooo much scripture to read and ask for bread, but if you will read and ask for bread you won't get a stone, but the bread of life Himself.
Colossians 1:1-29 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit. For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
It is His working in us, not our working to present ourselves perfect before God. We never could, will not and never will be able to present ourselves to God by our own works.
It is by The Faith of Jesus Christ in us, given by God that we believe.
Galatians 2:14-21 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Who's faith came that we might be made the righteous of God in Christ Jesus?
Galatians 3:21-28 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Is righteousness by the Law? Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
No man can choose God on his own, and did not from the beginning of the world and has not since and never will.
It is by Gods Grace we are saved through the Faith of Jesus Christ given to us by the Father, those that are given to Christ, He will not loose One, except the son of perdition, Judas to fulfil the Word of God.
Ephesians 2:4-22 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Who's workmanship are we, by Grace through Faith which is not our own? We are His workmanship in Christ Jesus our Lord. I can not be my own workmanship before God, for it is dirty rags and a pile of dung.
Only Christ birthed and made in us makes us wise, righteous, sanctified, and redeemed.
1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
I am the foolish things of the world, despised, I am the thing that is not, lost and condemned. But of Him am I in Christ Jesus, whom God has made to be in me, as it is written, He is my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. He is our glory, and I glory in nothing else.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2008/11/26 13:50||Profile|
Quote:What proof do you have that Adam was any different than we are today.
I just dont see how that you cant see that all mankind was born from Adam after Adam had sinned and became an all together different being than he was in his original creation.
I have already proven that Adam was the same as all mankind are today.
Do you need me to post my proof again?
Quote:Adam was fleshly before he sinned, that is why he sinned.
God would not let him eat of the tree of Life after he had sinned. He died spiritually and became fleshly and not spiritual.
Adam died spiritually as we all do, from our own sin.
However, Adam was restored back to God, so why would you think that his sin or guilt was passed to anyone?
Quote:Okay, but nothing of that sort is genetic, inheritable, or passed on by birth.
Brother, God is so Holy that it does not take much to be unholy in God's sight. There is no way you can make any reasonable person believe that Adam was the same after he sinned as he was before he sinned.
Quote: Because they all chose to sin, not because of their nature.
God would not accept Him or anybody after him without a sacrifice.
Tell me why woukd God create mankind with a nature that He hates?
Why would God allow a nature to be passed through humanity which would be contrary to His?
In order for sin nature to be real, God has to be fully responcible for it.
Who else is the creator of natures?
Who is the One to make it so that sin can chang one's nature?
Who is the One to make it so that sin nature is passed down to offspring?
Quote:Jesus proved not sinning could be done, that is why were guilty, because we could, but always choose not to.
We know that Jesus became the sacrifice for all mankind. We also know that none of the babies born after Adam are fully developed. We know that they have to grow to adulthood. We know that all of them will sin in some way or another before they reach adulthood.
Stop blaming your nature for your sin and live up to your own responsibility. Admit that every sin that you committed was avoidable.
Stop blaming your choices to sin on your nature, admit that every choice to sin was because you had your affections on the wrong thing & you could still, willingly do the right thing.
Sin nature is a scapegoat!
Quote:Innocent babies do not need to be born again, because they never "unsaved" to begin with.
We know that they were not born of God at birth because they must be born again.
Quote:You have no proof that Adam's nature was any different after he sinned.
Everything is begotten after its own kind. We were begotten from Adam and received from his nature and this was after he had sinned.
Quote:John the baptizer was filled with the Spirit from in the womb.
Jesus was begotten in the likeness of Adam with a human body but He was also begotten of God. The bible says that he is the only begotten Son of God. The only way we can be begotten of God is through the only begotten Son.
Jesus came in a human body like ours but the difference is that He was begotten of God as well as of man. We are begotten of Adam. Our nature came from Adam but His nature came from God and he was not tainted with a sin nature and nothing unholy touch his birth. Jesus is the only one who can claim to be the only begotten of God from birth as a human without sin
In even unborn infants have a so called "sin nature" how did John the baptizer receive the Holy Spirit with out faith or repenting?
| 2008/11/26 14:05||Profile|
Quote:Body was not effected, soul &/spirit was cut off from the life of God (spiritual death), however, Adam was restored after God killed an animal & made coasts of skin to be made in a right relationships with God again (spiritual life).
I think the original question should be changed for a moment. The original question: "(is there proof of) INHERITED SINFUL NATURE from Adam?" How about, "How was body, soul, and spirit affected by the fall?"
Since Adam was restored, why would you think his children would not be in good standing with God in his loins if it is even possible for spiritual standing can be inherited or genetic?
Tell me, how us the spiritual standing with any one to effect an offspring?
Quote:That which is conceived of the flesh is flesh (just starting ones life over without the purpose of righteousness in the power if the Holy Spirit); and that which is conceived of the Spirit is what matters.
For example, meditate on this verse:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
- John 3:6
Quote:The virgin birth is to show us nothing else but that Jesus was not created.
Now the purpose of the virgin birth seems somewhat foolish if this verse is not true.
For creatures(created beings) need creature sperm.
Jesus is the Seed if God, not created.
Quote:Watchman Nee is questionable.
I just found a random Christian website where the chapter from, "The Spiritual Man", by Nee called, "The Fall of Man", is. Here is the link:
I think this spiritual knowledge is essential before returning to the original question.
[url=http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=722]WATCHING OUT FOR WATCHMAN NEE[/url]
Quote:Nope, but please don't come in to prove anything but be willing to learn.
Hopefully my jutting into this forum is not overly offensive.
I will be persuaded if one presents Scripture as interpreted correctly, in context with the correct co-texts.
| 2008/11/26 14:11||Profile|
Quote:Why wouldn't God grant the ability to perform that which He commands?
TaylorOtwell wrote:But the Lord is saying it has to be granted a man to even be able to come to Christ and receive eternal life, so why does that have to be granted to a man?
To not would be tyrannical
Quote:It does in reality, it must with God.
To command someone to do something doesn't imply ability.
If God does not dwell in reality, he is in the realm of lies.
If what you say is true, & you want to be a godly father, you must start commanding your children the impossible & punish them for disobedience.
Or even a godly employer.
you must start commanding your employees the impossible & demerit them for disobedience.
Quote:He commands all men to believe already, this don't make sense.
In fact, even from a "those whom God foresaw would believe are the elect" perspective, [b]the Lord still would have commanded men to believe[/b] whom he knew never would believe nor could
believe (else his foreknowledge would have been incorrect).
Quote:The logical conclusion is that God command the impossible and condemns some for not complying.
I simply presented you with something the Lord said that states man has to be granted the ability to even be able to come to Christ. Since you believe man has the ability to choose God without God changing them, I'm interested to know what you think about this teaching of the Lord.
This is wicked.
God would be directly responsible for mankind not obeying because He hasn't given them the ability.
God would be condemning for which He alone is responsible for.
These are ridiculous!
I'll answer in a general way. However the Lord changes men, it is such that where before they could not come to Christ, they afterwards can and desire to.
| 2008/11/26 14:15||Profile|