SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : can you prove sin nature?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Hi Taylor,

The answer to the question, I think, lies in understanding HOW it is "given unto him of [the] Father". Salvation is by faith and faith by hearing the word of God. No one can believe Jesus without first or simultaneously believing God's word about Jesus. That's like when Philip was explaining Isaiah to the treasurer. The man believed the word of God about Jesus and believing he had access to Jesus' death and blood.

That is how faith is a choice and a gift at the same time. So what you have are a lot of passages in scripture that focus on it being God's doing and a lot of passages in scripture that focus on it being our doing. The answer is that God intends it to be cooperative. He gets all the glory and we get to freely choose him.

So the word "can" is totally appropriate. We have to be careful not to jump to conclusions and neglect all the seemingly "contradicting" scriptures.

Hope that helps. I've struggled with the freewill vs predestination thing a lot, I know it's easy to get hung up on it.

Ben

 2008/11/25 18:31









 Re:

Taylor,
a minor addition to the last post. you mentioned moral ability and virtue. I believe man has moral ability like you said but he only has virtue if he chooses to behave in a virtuous way. We're not born with a nature that forces us to be virtuous any more than we are born with one that forces sinfulness.

 2008/11/25 18:34
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Ben,

So what exactly is granted to men by the Father.

It may also be helpful to consider John 10:26 and the reason the Pharisees did not believe. It was because they were not part of the Lord's flock.

Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 18:57Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Ben or Logic,

I have a few questions for you regarding John 6:65:

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man [b]can[/b] come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Greek word for "can" here: δύναται

Lexicon's definition: "to be able or possible"

Same Greek word used in John 3:3 where the Lord states that a man "cannot" enter the Kingdom of God without being born again by the Spirit of God.

Could you offer an explanation as to why man can't come to Jesus unless it is given to him by the Father?

I understand that John 3:16 says that whosoever will believe may have eternal life; however, that verse speaks nothing of ability. It simply states that whoever believes will have eternal life.

I'm wondering why, if man has the moral ability and virtue that you and Logic propose he does, he can't simply come to Jesus on his own?

Thanks,
Taylor

[b]Joh 6:45[/b] [color=990000]It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.[/color]

 2008/11/25 19:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So what exactly is granted to men by the Father.

It may also be helpful to consider John 10:26 and the reason the Pharisees did not believe. It was because they were not part of the Lord's flock.



Jesus laid it on the Pharisees real hard. They wouldn't even hear his word. All they tried to do was trip him up with questions and kill him. Jesus set a an example for us with how much he reached out to them. Some of those monologues, like in John, are pretty long. He treated them with love even though they hated him. He wanted them to believe but they chose not to. He told them even if you don't believe me then believe because of the miracles I'm showing you day after day! Just believe! They thought they we're righteous and on solid ground. They thought they were children of God. They thought they had everything under control. But no way, God is ultimately in control. Just because he gave freewill to men who used it for evil doesn't mean they'll get what they want forever. Just for a time. They laugh, eat, and are rich now because of their selfish choices but they will mourn and starve in poverty for eternity against their choice. The little they do have will be taken from them.
I like how Jesus was so loving that he wasn't afraid to say things that they wanted to stone him for. It's like Stephen.

Ben

 2008/11/25 19:31









 Re:

This is what is granted: Life or Death.
(eternal not temporal)

 2008/11/25 19:33









 Re:

Quote:
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."

The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account

here's more of the same

 2008/11/25 19:36
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Ben,

But the Lord is saying it has to be granted a man to even be able to come to Christ and receive eternal life, so why does that have to be granted to a man?

The Lord said in John 17:6 that he had manifested the Father's name to those the Father had given him. This giving must have occurrd before they decide to come to Christ, because Christ states in John 6 that those whom the Father has given him will come to him - not necessarily have all come to him yet.

-Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 20:42Profile









 Re:

Hi Taylor,

It sounds like you're stuck on the fact that God knows everything. Is that really the whole picture? What about the rest of scripture? What about repenting. What about stopping your sinning? Do you understand what I mean? Jesus came to save sinners. He told them to stop.

I don't mind answering your questions at all. I'm just trying to point your thinking in a new direction so you will be able to answer the questions yourself. Let me know whether it's making any sense to you or not.

Ben

 2008/11/25 21:02
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Ben,

Yes, and I preach to all to repent and trust in Christ as well. But this thread isn't about evangelism. We're talking about the sinfulness of man.

To command someone to do something doesn't imply ability. In fact, even from a "those whom God foresaw would believe are the elect" perspective, the Lord still would have commanded men to believe whom he knew never would believe nor could
believe (else his foreknowledge would have been incorrect).

I simply presented you with something the Lord said that states man has to be granted the ability to even be able to come to Christ. Since you believe man has the ability to choose God without God changing them, I'm interested to know what you think about this teaching of the Lord.

Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 21:18Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy