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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Logic,

I'm having a hard time correlating two things you have said:

They are:

Quote:
Physical death is not punishment, it is only a consecuence of not being able to eat from the Tree of Life.



and something you wrote from the first pages of this discussion:

Quote:
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Notice the logic: [b]If, because of Adam's trespass, [physical] death reigned because of him (Adam)[/b], [how] much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness [by faith will] reign in [physical] life because of Jesus Christ.



Could you explain how these statements are not contradictory?

Where does it say that physical death is judgemnt in Romans 5:17?

All it says is that death reigned.
Why?
Because Adam was cut off from the Tree of Life.
Now no one can get to it as a consequence.

 2008/11/25 13:15Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quick reply to Ben:

"Cooperating" doesn't mean agreeing with you, or never questioning your position with Scriptural exegesis.

As this thread has over 100 replies, it's safe to say we have all "cooperated".

***edit***

Furthermore, by your own testimony, you came to your conclusions "a couple of days ago", when it "occurred to you" that, supposedly, the concept of imputed sin didn't make any sense. I think I would be more cautious in storming onto this site and propagating views contradictory to the vast majority of godly Christians throughout history, and then have the nerve to tell people that question you they have the "dragon's doctrine".


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 13:19Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

If you don't mind - I'd like to get back to the topic at hand - "can you prove sin nature?".

Frankly, I feel that most of the verses dealing with this issue have been brought up. However, I would like to return to Ephesians 2:3 and deal with some issues from the Greek, because I don't these have been properly dealt with here or in another thread where you and I were discussing these things.

[i]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/i] (Ephesians 2:3)

Now, from what I remember, you believe that this verse speaks of men defiling their nature by their sins, and you do not believe it speaks about an inherent sinful inclination that is present in men from birth (since the Fall). If I am misrepresenting your position, please let me know.

[b]Furthermore, if we became children of wrath by after-birth decisions to sin - what were we before?[/b] If you respond "children of God" - could you please explain how that would not contradict John 1:12-13, which states that nobody is the "children of God" from natural birth? If you state that we were in some kind of neutral position, could you explain what the Lord meant in Matthew 12:30 - [i]"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[/i]

Another contention is that I don't think the Greek text supports your view here, which you have suggested it does elsewhere.

φύσει (Strongs 5449) is translated as "nature".

[i]"We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles."[/i] (Galatians 2:13)

[b]Here it is spoken of in terms of a nature connected with the natural birth. I think it would be safe to say that nature, in this verse, is basically synonymous with birth.[/b]

[i]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)[/i] (Romans 2:14-15)

Here, Paul uses the word "nature" in terms of the God-given conscience that convicts of right and wrong. It is not something they have done to their nature, because verse 15 states that this "nature" is because God has (in some fashion differently than those regenerated in Ezekiel 36) written his laws upon their hearts. Again, the word is not used here in terms of bettering or defiling your nature by your own actions.

-Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 13:26Profile









 Re:

Hi Taylor,
in Romans 3: it's not physical death
moral, spiritual, eternal death, second death
it is contrasted with moral, spiritual, eternal life in Christ in verse 23

There is a false assumption that because all men die that it is a punishment.
not all results are punishments
not all hardship is punishment
physical death is not necessarily a punishment
the second death is punishment
physical mortality is actually an opportunity to lay down our lives for God and manifest true child-like faith which God accepts.

 2008/11/25 13:41
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Ben,

Quote:
Hi Taylor, in Romans 3: it's not physical death moral, spiritual, eternal death, second death it is contrasted with moral, spiritual, eternal life in Christ in verse 23



I guess I'm not seeing how, if you truly believed this, there would be no point for this thread, because you would already believe that men have an inclination to sin from birth.

If it is spiritual death, then you agree that men are "dead in sins", and "by nature children of wrath" (as Paul says) from birth?

I'm assuming you would say that they sin by Adam's example, which I think is a pretty odd argument. It implies that, when men sin, they are thinking to themselves "I really want to be like Adam". But, perhaps this is not your position, if not, please let me know.

- Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/25 13:53Profile









 Re:

Taylor, thank you for the questions.

1) I believe that men are inclined to selfishness from their youth by free choice. Not by nature. I may not have understood that first statement though..Is the response helpful?

2) Paul didn't say from birth. He wasn't talking about birth and inheritance when he said nature or children.

3) :) no, that's not what I meant. I mean we "followed Adam's example" in the sense that we chose to sin just like he chose to sin before us. It's still our own choice.

I don't think physical death is a punishment. Adam caused his own spiritual death and we "followed his example" and so spiritual death passed to all men because all sinned. Physical death doesn't pass to all men because all sinned. The evidence is that we can't sin until we're old enough. The inheritance doctrine is needed to back up the interpretation of the spreading death being physical and actually twists the part where it says "death passed to all because all sinned".

Thanks for asking - Ben

 2008/11/25 14:34
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Logic,

If you don't mind - I'd like to get back to the topic at hand - "can you prove sin nature?".

Frankly, I feel that most of the verses dealing with this issue have been brought up. However, I would like to return to Ephesians 2:3 and deal with some issues from the Greek, because I don't these have been properly dealt with here or in another thread where you and I were discussing these things.

Thank you for actually discussing this, instead of coming at me with guns firing.

[b]Ephesians 2:3[/b] [color=990000]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/color]
Question:
Are you responsible for being a male?
Is it your fault for being male
are you accountable to God for being male?
If not, then why do you think the children of wrath are at fault for being born as such?

The use of the word "nature" here is as if one is thirsty, he will [b]naturally[/b] drink.

So it is with those who fulfill the desires of the flesh and of the (carnal) mind, are [b]by nature of doing these things[/b], they are children of wrath.
Not by nature of being a child of wrath, one will "live their lives in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the (carnal) mind.

Quote:
Since these passage is written by the Apostle Paul, under the inspiration of the Spirit, I think it would be helpful to look at how Paul uses this word in other contexts.

"We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles." (Galatians 2:15)

I agree, we should look at how Paul uses this word in other contexts.

Paul is comparing who people are; gentiles are sinners because they live as sinners; and those being a Jew, live after the manner of a Jew(from the context of verse 14).

By [b]nature[/b] of being born of a Jew, he is a Jew, it is [b]who[/b] one is.

Not γένεσις (Strongs #G1078) genesis, ghen'-es-is; which implies lineage, heredity, constitution, genetics, and [b]what[/b]= one is.

[b]Romans 2:14-15[/b] [color=990000]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)[/color]
Notice, that if they [b]don't do[/b] the thing which are a law unto themselves in their heart, their conscience will bear witness, and their thoughts will [b]accuse[/b] them.

But if they [b]do[/b] thing which are a law unto themselves in their heart, their conscience will bear witness, and their thoughts will [b]excuse[/b] them.

Just as one has a law written in their heart, he will naturally do (or not do) the things contained in the law of this heart.

 2008/11/25 15:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

All of Egypt carried out Pharaoh's order to kill all the male infants of Israel, actively or passively. Pharaoh claimed his own 10th plague for all of Egypt and all the people participated in it and were guilty before God.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Exodus 11:5
Two points are to be noticed:

1. The extent of the visitation: the whole land suffers in the persons of its firstborn, not merely for the guilt of the sovereign, but for the actual participation of the people in the crime of infanticide Ex 1:22.

2. The limitation: Pharaoh's command had been to slay ALL the male children of the Israelites, but only one child in each Egyptian family was to die. If Tothmosis II was the Pharaoh, the visitation fell with special severity on his family. He left no son, but was succeeded by his widow.

Firstborn of beasts - This visitation has a special force in reference to the worship of beasts, which was universal in Egypt; each district having its own sacred animal, adored as a manifestation or representative of the local tutelary deity.

All guilty before God, including Israel, Only the blood saves anyone.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/11/25 15:23Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

benjoseph wrote:

I don't think physical death is a punishment. Adam caused his own spiritual death and we "followed his example" and so spiritual death passed to all men because all sinned. Physical death doesn't pass to all men because all sinned. The evidence is that we can't sin until we're old enough. - Ben



Brother Ben,

Are you saying that spiritual death passed to all because all sinned by following Adam's example?

So you are not saying that we all were born spiritually dead, but that we all sinned and became spiritually dead like Adam.

If this is truly what you are saying, then are you saying, that we were born with spiritual life of God but when we sinned we became spiritually dead?


I don’t see how this is the correct interpretation that you have given that we follow his example because of what is stated in verse 14.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

It says clearly from Adam to Moses that death reigned over all them who didn’t follow Adam’s example.

It looks like from scripture that death was passed down to all men and it was not because we followed Adam’s example.

 2008/11/25 15:42Profile









 Re:

(This might help to explain.)

[color=000099]Physical Temptation[/color] is when our [i]bodies[/i] desire something that we should not allow them to have.
[color=000099]Mental Temptation[/color] is when we have a [i]thought or impulse[/i] to want, think, do, or say something that we know is wrong.
[color=000099]Sin[/color] is when a person makes a free choice to indulge a temptation [i]knowing[/i] the choice is wrong.

On the one hand, temptation is involuntary, [i]without[/i] our consent, not by choice, etc.
However, unlike temptation, sin is [i]voluntary[/i], [i]with[/i] our consent, by choice, etc.

It's not wrong to have temptations. There's no guilt or shame in temptation. Temptation is lamentable but not our fault. Jesus had temptations but didn't choose to sin. We've all had temptations but we all chose to sin. The difference between our actions and Jesus' actions is in our will, choices, consent, etc. Jesus did not consent to sin. We did. By nature, it was not [i]easier[/i] for Jesus to say "no" to sin. He had the same temptations/nature we have. Sin does [i]not[/i] come from our nature but from our consent. Temptation comes through our nature.

So [color=000099]sin[/color] [i]only[/i] happens when we [i]think[/i] about it first, [i]know[/i] it's wrong, and [i]do[/i] it anyway. (Think. Know. Do.)
[color=000099]Temptation[/color], however, does [i]not[/i] require premeditation. It can just [i]surprise[/i] us because it's natural.

 2008/11/25 15:50





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