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savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2055


 Re: will

benjoseph quotes, 1) "You'll never be able to obey without knowing how obeying works."

2) "I know there are passages in the bible that talk about God's foreknowledge and predestination but that doesn't mean God wants to punish you and you can't turn to him by your own free choice and seek him."

In your post where the above quotes are found you mention free-will.

The term (free-will) implies that the will is free from something.

Are you saying the will of the creature is free from the will of the Creator? If no, then what is the will free from? And what causes the will to choose?


 2008/11/24 22:15Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

J.I. Packer (from Concise Theology)
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5)

Scripture diagnoses sin as a universal deformity of human nature, found at every point in every person (1 Kings 8:46; Rom. 3:9-23; 7:18; 1 John 1:8-10). Both Testaments have names for it that display its ethical character as rebellion against God's rule, missing the mark God set us to aim at, transgressing God's law, disobeying God's directives, offending God's purity by defiling oneself, and incurring guilt before God the Judge. This moral deformity is dynamic: sin stands revealed as an energy of irrational, negative, and rebellious reaction to God's call and command, a spirit of fighting God in order to play God. The root of sin is pride and enmity against God, the spirit seen in Adam's first transgression; and sinful acts always have behind them thoughts, motives, and desires that one way or another express the willful opposition of the fallen heart to God's claims on our lives.

Sin may be comprehensively defined as lack of conformity to the law of God in act, habit, attitude, outlook, disposition, motivation, and mode of existence. Scriptures that illustrate different aspects of sin include Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 12:30-37; Mark 7:20-23; Romans 1:18-3:20; 7:7-25; 8:5-8; 14:23 (Luther said that Paul wrote Romans to "magnify sin"); Galatians 5:16-21; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19; Hebrews 3:12; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; 5:17. Flesh in Paul usually means a human being driven by sinful desire; the niv renders these instances of the word as "sinful nature." The particular faults and vices (i.e., forms and expression of sin) that Scripture detects and denounces are too numerous to list here.

Original sin, meaning sin derived from our origin, is not a biblical phrase (Augustine coined it), but it is one that brings into fruitful focus the reality of sin in our spiritual system. The assertion of original sin means not that sin belongs to human nature as God made it (God made mankind upright, Eccles. 7:29), nor that sin is involved in the processes of reproduction and birth (the uncleanness connected with menstruation, semen, and childbirth in Leviticus 12 and 15 was typical and ceremonial only, not moral and real), but that (a) sinfulness marks everyone from birth, and is there in the form of a motivationally twisted heart, prior to any actual sins; (b) this inner sinfulness is the root and source of all actual sins; (c) it derives to us in a real though mysterious way from Adam, our first representative before God. The assertion of original sin makes the point that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather we sin because we are sinners, born with a nature enslaved to sin.

The phrase total depravity is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin. It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be) but in extent. It declares that no part of us is untouched by sin, and therefore no action of ours is as good as it should be, and consequently nothing in us or about us ever appears meritorious in God's eyes. We cannot earn God's favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost.

Total depravity entails total inability, that is, the state of not having it in oneself to respond to God and his Word in a sincere and wholehearted way (John 6:44; Rom. 8:7-8). Paul calls this unresponsiveness of the fallen heart a state of death (Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13), and the Westminster Confession says: "Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto" (IX. 3).

 2008/11/24 22:42Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

In light of Romans 5, which teaches us that Adam was the Federal Head over all his physical children, just as Christ is the Federal Head over all His spiritual children, R. C. Sproul gives this helpful analogy:

----

One final illustration may be helpful here. We bristle at the idea that God calls us to be righteous when we are hampered by original sin. We say, “But God, we can’t be righteous. We are fallen creatures. How can you hold us accountable when you know very well we were born with original sin?”

The illustration is as follows. Suppose God said to a man, “I want you to trim these bushes by three o’clock this afternoon. But be careful. There is a large open pit at the edge of the garden. If you fall into that pit, you will ‘not be able to get yourself out. So whatever you do, stay away from that pit.”

Suppose that as soon as God leaves the garden the man runs over and jumps into the pit. At three o’clock God returns and finds the bushes untrimmed. He calls for the gardener and hears a faint cry from the edge of the garden. He walks to the edge of the pit and sees the gardener helplessly flailing around on the bottom. He says to the gardener, “Why haven’t you trimmed the bushes I told you to trim?” The gardener responds in anger, “How do you expect me to trim these bushes when I am trapped in this pit? If you hadn’t left this empty pit here, I would not be in this predicament.”

Adam jumped into the pit. In Adam we all jumped into the pit. God did not throw us into the pit. Adam was clearly warned about the pit. God told him to stay away. The consequences Adam experienced from being in the pit were a direct punishment for jumping into it.

So it is with original sin. Original sin is both the consequence of Adam’s sin and the punishment for Adam’s sin. We are born sinners because in Adam all fell. Even the word fall is a bit of a euphemism. It is a rose-colored view of the matter. The word fall suggests an accident of sorts. Adam’s sin was not an accident. He was not Humpty Dumpty. Adam didn’t simply slip into sin; he jumped into it with both feet. We jumped headlong with him. God didn’t push us. He didn’t trick us. He gave us adequate and fair warning. The fault is ours and only ours.

It is not that Adam ate sour grapes and our teeth are set on edge. The biblical teaching is that in Adam we all ate the sour grapes. That is why our teeth are set on edge.

Calvinism, along with other views of predestination, teaches that God’s decree was made both before the Fall, and in light of the Fall. Why is this important? Because the Calvinistic view of predestination always accents the gracious character of God’s redemption. When God predestines people to salvation he is predestinating people to be saved whom he knows really need to be saved. They need to be saved because they are sinners in Adam, not because he forced them to be sinners. Calvinism sees Adam sinning by his own free will, not by divine coercion.

To be sure, God knew before the Fall that there would most certainly be a Fall and he took action to redeem some. He ordained the Fall in the sense that he chose to allow it, but not in the sense that he chose to coerce it. His predestinating grace is gracious precisely because he chooses to save people whom he knows in advance will be spiritually dead.

 2008/11/24 22:49Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2055


 Re:Author...Authorship...Authority


From Webster's 1828 Dictionary

AU'THOR, n. [L. auctor. The Latin word is from the root of augeo, to increase, or cause to enlarge. The primary sense is one who brings or causes to come forth.]

1. One who produces, creates, or brings into being; as, God is the author of the Universe.

2. The beginner, former, or first mover of any thing; hence, the efficient cause of a thing. It is appropriately applied to one who composes or writes a book, or original work, and in a more general sense, to one whose occupation is to compose and write books; opposed to compiler or translator.

AU'THOR, v.t. To occasion; to effect.

AU'THORSHIP, n. [author and ship.] The quality or state of being an author.

AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]

1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.

2. The power derived from opinion, respect or esteem; influence of character or office; credit; as the authority of age or example, which is submitted to or respected, in some measure, as a law, or rule of action. That which is claimed in justification or support of opinions and measures.

3. Testimony; witness; or the person who testifies; as, the Gospels or the evangelists are our authorities for the miracles of Christ.

4. Weight of testimony; credibility; as a historian of no authority.

5. Weight of character; respectability; dignity; as a magistrate of great authority in the city.

6. Warrant; order; permission.

By what authority dost thou these things. Mat 21. Acts 9.

7. Precedents, decisions of a court, official declarations, respectable opinions and says, also the books that contain them, are called authorities, as they influence the opinions of others; and in law, the decisions of supreme courts have a binding force upon inferior courts, and are called authorities.

Right it is to acknowledge God as The Author,posessing Authorship,and as being The Authority.

I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me: I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together: I the Lord have created it. Isa. 45:5-8, KJV

Remember the former things of old, For I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure,’ Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Isa. 46:9-11

Yet he is in one minde, & who can turne him? yea, he doeth what his minde desireth. For he will performe that, which is decreed of me, and many such things are with him. Therefore I am troubled at his presence, & in considering it, I am afraid of him. For God hath softened mine heart, & the Almightie hath troubled me. Job 23:13-16(Geneva Bible)

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day. Deut. 2:30

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. 1 Sam. 16:14,15 KJV

As streams of waters, the king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah; He turns it wherever He desires.
Prov. 21:1

Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land—even the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—with drunkenness! And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together," says the LORD. "I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them."’" Jer. 13:13,14

Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lam. 3:38 KJV

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Col. 1:16; Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Col. 2:15

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Rom. 9:22,23

But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable, And He said to them,"To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’" Mark 4:10-12

When he is judged, let him be found guilty. And let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few, and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children continually be vagabonds, and beg; Let them seek their bread also from their desolate places. Let the creditor seize all that he has, And let strangers plunder his labor. Let there be none to extend mercy to him, Nor let there be any to favor his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off, And in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be continually before the LORD, That He may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Ps. 109:7-15

But You, O GOD the Lord, Deal with me for Your name’s sake; Because Your mercy is good, deliver me. Ps. 109:21

Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men. For they speak against You wickedly; Your enemies take Your name in vain. Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. Ps. 139:19-22

Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 2 Thess. 1:6,7

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. Gen. 50:20

Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? Amos 3:6 KJV

It is the philosophy of Plato that God cannot create evil, not the teaching of scripture.

The Platonic assumption that God cannot create evil is one reason why men have come up with alternate systems of doctrine from the Bible.

When God says,"Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it", it is an act of commission(whether through secondary causes or directly)and not of mere permission.

Those who advocate a mere permission on God's part and at the same time attempt to hold to God's absolute sovereignty cannot do so.

Would to God that He'd reveal the incongruousness of such a position. That many would stop trying to defend Him, and as children let the Scriptures themselves answer this theodicy.

He does not hide Himself but Has plainly spoken and shown Himself to "do all these things".


 2008/11/24 22:55Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

savannah wrote:
The term (free-will) implies that the will is free from something.

Not free from something, but free do do.

Quote:
Are you saying the will of the creature is free from the will of the Creator?

Yes, God willed that Adam would obey & never sin.
Adam was free fom od's will.
We as cristians are still free from God's will, as we sin we prove it, however, we submit our wil to His.


Quote:
And what causes the will to choose?

Our desires causes the will to choose. However, we are able to be persuaded to certain desires.

As some say that we can not choose what we will not do, however, we may be persuaded to t it.


 2008/11/24 22:58Profile









 Re:

Hi Savannah,

[color=009900]"In your post where the above quotes are found you mention free-will.
The term (free-will) implies that the will is free from something."[/color]

Yes. That's right.

[color=009900]"Are you saying the will of the creature is free from the will of the Creator?"[/color]

In a way.

[color=009900]"If no, then what is the will free from?"[/color]

The will is free from cause and effect so we can make free choices. Computers follow cause and effect. A round ball on a steep hill will follow cause and effect. That's the law of gravity. Things that don't have free will just follow natural laws. Animals maybe have instincts on top of that. Animals are special. People are even more special. We can freely choose between whatever choices we have in front of us.

[color=009900]"And what causes the will to choose?"[/color]

Here's the big secret :)
It's [b]"Who causes"[/b], not [b]"what causes"[/b]. It's you. It's not really "the will". That's just a way of talking about "it". It's really just YOU. God made YOU so YOU can choose this or that.

Does that help?

I'd be glad to give examples if you want.
Remember, God is love. He gave us the ability to choose because without choice there is no love.

 2008/11/24 23:16
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

[i] For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not,
it is no more I that do it,

but sin
that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that,
when I would do good,
evil is present
with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law
in my members,

warring against
the law of my mind,

and bringing me into captivity
to the law of sin

which is in my members.


O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [/i]
Rom 7:19-24


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/11/24 23:19Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Y'all have a monster in yoy theology. Bringing guilt to unborn infants who are not guilty.
If you want to keep portraying God as an unrighteous beast, go right ahead.

I promote man's fault & responsibility to his own choice to sin which brings guilt on himself.
You promote a monster who claim unborn infant to be guilty of a distantbrelitves sin.

You claim that we sin becase of our nature which we have no control of.
I claim thatbwe sin by our own choice which we do have clntrol of.

You claim that we sin because we are alresdy wicked.
I claim that we are wicked be cause we choose to be by sinning.

Now who has the doctrine which makes man more accountable & responcible for his own actions?

Who has the doctrine which makes God to be just in calling them who are guilty, who by choice sin instead of beng guilty by default.

 2008/11/24 23:20Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Logic, Here are the exact words that Jesus said.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


I have told you that I believe God gives man a choice to obey Him and this was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden. God wanted Adam to walk in fellowship with Him in total obedience. God never wanted man to be independent of Him but wanted man to walk in His presence and glory.

Logic you have stated that man could be righteous on his own because Jesus did.

Logic you have also accused God of giving man a weak flesh that caused Adam to sin and say that is the reason we sin because our flesh was created weak.

I don’t accuse God; I accuse Adam of being disobedient and not walking with God to keep from sinning. You say the reason we sin is because our flesh is created weak but I’m saying that the bible says that Adam brought sin into the world and we are tainted with sin from birth because of Adam. God did not create us weak so that we would sin; we became weak because of sin that was brought into this world by Adam. Adam lost the glory and righteousness of God because He sinned. We were in the loins of Adam so therefore we lost the glory and righteousness of God because of sin. We are restored by faith in Christ and His finished work. We must be born again. God created man a free agent for him to love and obey Him. God told Adam that there was only one tree he could not eat of or he would die and he did die spiritually and this resulted into physical death also.

God has spoken again and told the whole world that there is only one way of Salvation and that is through His Son and the only way we can have eternal life. The sin nature is no excuse because God has shown His Love to us by not sparing His only Son so that he could give us all things.

God will hold all men accountable for their own sins just like He held Adam accountable for his sins. A born again relationship with God is the only thing that can keep us from sinning.

Jesus even said we were evil but we would dare say that he was evil and he had a human body just like us.

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Notice that the bible says that the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth. God is grieved over this and has made atonement for this. It all started in the garden after man fell by disobedience. God slew Lambs and made clothing for Adam and Eve. The first sacrifice of blood was by Able born of Adam. God made the promise right their in the Garden through the seed of a woman. Adam was created a fully developed man with outstanding intelligence in a world without sin. Everyone born after Adam were born a baby into a world of Sin. They are not born in the womb with a born of God nature. They must be born again of God. They will all sin because they come into a world of sin. I believe babies are born in a state of innocence and therefore are not held accountable for sins, because they don’t even know what it means yet. Jesus loves the little children and has already made atonement for them on the cross. The only people who will be in hell are those who sin willfully and did not repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation from sin through his shed blood on the cross

The Law revived sin within us.
God gave the Law not to make us righteous but to show us our sins and our need of His grace and promise through the sacrifice of His Son.

Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I am now going to bed but I love you in the Lord even if you are stubborn and evil like the bible says, because you have sinned, we all have, because God don’t lie.

 2008/11/24 23:29Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

2Sa 12:13-24


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/11/24 23:33Profile





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