SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : can you prove sin nature?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 Next Page )
PosterThread
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
1) if inherited sin means our natural ability to be tempted then it is no cause for guilt. Jesus was able to be tempted.



Jesus was tempted in every point like we are yet without sin. Our trouble is that we sin, and one sin is enough to damn us. Thus proving we are "children of wrath".

Quote:
2) if inherited sin means wanting to sin then we don't have free will, aren't guilty, nullify the cross, and make an image of the beast and worship it.



Well, we don't have free will. Left to our own heart's desires, we would sin and have no desire for Christ. We are born slaves to our sin and must be redeemed or ransomed. This in no way nullifies the cross, it magnifies it by showing the great grace of our God in reconciling us to Him through the wrath atoning sacrifice of Christ the perfect sin bearer.

Quote:
3) if inherited sin means something about our nature that makes temptation more difficult to resist. Then Jesus had it and overcame. Otherwise antichrist is true.



We are not Jesus and will never resist sin perfectly and that is why we need a perfect obedience to be put to our account. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by faith.

So to do away with imputed guilt through Adam, you by default do away with imputed righteousness in Christ.

Paul's point from Romans 1:16 on to chapter 5 is the unpacking of justification by faith apart from works of the Law. Don't overlook this in reading Romans.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/11/24 16:26Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

CCrider, I have really enjoyed your posts and you have explained it very well. I can tell that you have received this wisdom from the Lord. I thank you for your contribution.

The bible says that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. This is talking about sin within us. It also says following vs. 8 in vs. 10 that if we say we have not sinned we make Him a liar and his word is not in us. This is talking about the act of sinning.

Quote: ccrider
________________________________________
But [Matthew 6:33 ] seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, [1 Kgs 3:11-14; Mark 10:29, 30; 1 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 3:9] and all these things will be added to you.

I'm not to seek my own righteousness because without God it will not surpass that of the Pharisees. And from above we know that Christ told us to seek his righteousness.

Therefore I conclude that we cannot be righteous on our own, even through any willful decision to not sin...ever, if that's even possible.
________________________________________
Quote: Logic
First of all, it is possible, Jesus proved your conclusion to be wrong.

Second, we can be righteous on our own, even through any willful decision to not ever sin, because that is how Jesus was righteous. –Quote

Logic you are making up your own bible as you go along and all for what purpose. You are promoting heresy when you say it is possible to be righteous on our own. You also are promoting heresy when you say that Jesus proved that we could be righteous on our own because this is how He was righteous. Jesus made it clear that He could do nothing without the Father dwelling in Him. Jesus never acted independent of His Father.

You are promoting a self righteousness like the pharisee's. If man could have a righteousness acceptable to God on His own then Christ would not have died the death of the cross to make atonement for the sins of the whole world. Brother do you understand that we are righteous only through Christ and never of ourselves. God said there is none righteous on their own, no not one because all have corrupted themselves apart from Him.

 2008/11/24 16:59Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3541
Louisiana

 Re:

Brothers,

I believe that a lot of confusion that is taking place in these posts is a result of a lack of understanding as to what the sin nature really is, and the new nature that is given to all that are born of the spirit. I hope that this excerpt from the writings of Watchman Nee will help give you more light on the subject.

Mike


"Before we speak of our present condition, we should first understand the kind of person we were before we believed in the Lord. After that, we will speak of our condition after we believed in the Lord. We know that we are persons made up of three parts—the spirit, the soul, and the body. The spirit is the organ with which we fellowship with God. Animals have no spirit. Hence, they can never worship God. The soul is the seat of our personality. Our will, mind, emotion, and sentiments are all functions of the soul. The body is our outward shell. Although man has become fallen, he still possesses these three parts. After man is regenerated, he still has the same three parts. When God created man, He created him with a self-consciousness; man was a living creature with consciousness. He had a spirit. Hence, he was different from other lower kinds of creatures. He had a soul. Hence, he was different from the angels of light, who are purely spirits. The center of man was his spirit; it controlled his whole being. It controlled his soul and his body. Man was living totally for God; the emotions of his soul and the demands of his body were all headed up by his spirit, and they were for glorifying God and worshipping God.

But alas, man fell! This fall did not annul any of the three elements in man. However, the order of these three elements has been upset. The condition in the garden of Eden shows us clearly that mankind rebelled against God; his love for God ceased, and he declared his independence from God. Genesis 3:6 says, "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [this was the lust of the body, which comes first] and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired [this was the love of the emotion in the soul, which comes next] to make one wise [this was Satan's suggestion, `And ye shall be as gods, knowing' (3:5); this was the spirit rejecting God, and man satisfying the cravings of the soul and the body; this comes last]." In this way, man fell, and his spirit, soul, and body were all affected. The spirit became subject to the soul, and the soul was controlled by its many senses. The body developed many abnormal cravings and lusts, which enticed the soul. Originally the spirit took the lead. Now the body takes the lead to satisfy its lusts. In the Bible, this lust of the body is called the flesh. From this time on, man became flesh (Gen. 6:3). This flesh is now man's nature after he sinned; it is now his natural constitution. Our nature is the life principle or constitution that directs our whole being. Since the time of Adam, everyone born of woman bears this sinful nature; all of them are of the flesh. After understanding the origin of the flesh and how the flesh is just our sinful nature, we can now consider the character of this flesh. We cannot expect this flesh to improve. Human nature is hard to change. In fact, it will not change. The Lord Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh." We should focus on the word "is." That which is born of the flesh is flesh. No matter how much a person reforms, improves, and cultivates himself, the flesh is still the flesh. No matter how much a person tries to perform charitable, benevolent acts, send relief aid, love others, or serve, he is still the flesh. Even if he can do all these things, he is still the flesh. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh." Since it is the flesh that is born, it will be the flesh that will result. No man on earth can change his flesh. Neither can God in heaven change man's flesh, that is, man's nature.

Since God saw that it was impossible to mend, improve, or change man's sinful nature, He brought in the present wonderful way of redemption. We know that the Lord Jesus died for us on the cross at Golgotha. We also know that when we believe in Him and receive Him as our Savior, we are saved. But why does God deliver us from death to life once we believe in His Son's name? If this believing does not involve an exchange in our life, which is different from a mere change, will not God be delivering a man who is still full of sin into heaven? There must surely be a profound message here.

After we have believed in the Lord Jesus, God does not leave us to walk according to the old sinful nature, that is, the flesh. He sentenced the Lord Jesus to death because He intended, on the one hand, that the Lord become sin for us, and on the other hand, that the old Adamic creation be crucified with Him, so that He could give us a new life. When we believed in the Lord Jesus as our Savior, God gave us this new life with its new nature. "Through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust" (2 Pet. 1:4). At the time we believed, He dispensed into us His own life, the life of God, with the nature of God. This nature is entirely new; it is totally different from our old sinful nature. This nature does not come from an improvement of our old nature. This mysterious transaction took place at the instant we believed in the Lord Jesus as our Savior. This is regeneration, which is to be born from above and to receive God's life and nature. This regeneration is not something that man feels. Rather, it is the work of God's Holy Spirit in our spirit, recovering our spirit's lost position and installing God's life in our spirit. "The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8). All those who have genuinely believed in the Lord Jesus have the Holy Spirit working in them in this way. Those who believe only with their mouth or their head are not regenerated. All those who have believed with their heart are saved (Rom. 10:9) and are surely regenerated."

"Now, two natures emerge in a believer. One is the sinful nature, the flesh, which is the nature of old Adam. The other is the spiritual life, the "new spirit," which bears God's nature. Brothers, you have believed in the Lord Jesus, and you know that you are saved. For this reason, you are regenerated already. You should now know that there are two natures within you. These two natures are the cause of your numerous conflicts. The reason you fluctuate up and down and alternate between victory and defeat is that two natures are exercising their influence over you. These two natures are the key to the riddle of your life of struggling.

For a young believer to have such experiences of inward conflict and condemnation proves that he is regenerated. An unregenerated person is still dead in sin. Although he may at times be condemned in his conscience, such feeling is very ill-defined. Without the new nature, it is obvious that a person will not experience the conflict between the new nature and the old.

The Bible clearly describes this conflict between the new nature and the old. In Romans 7, Paul vividly portrayed this kind of life of conflict through his own experience. He said, "For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do" (v. 15). This is the conflict of the new and the old natures. The description here is that of the experience of a newborn believer. At such times, he is still a babe in Christ. He is in the infancy of his spiritual life, and he is still childish and powerless. The "I" in the "what I will" and "what I hate" refers to the new nature. Although the new nature desires God's will and hates sin, the other nature, the old nature, is too strong. This, together with the weakness of a person's will, compels that one to sin. However, the new nature does not sin. "Now then it is no longer I that work it out, but sin that dwells in me" (v. 17). The first "I" is the "I" of the new nature. "Sin" is another name for the sinful nature. Therefore, this verse means that the one who sins is not the new "I," but the sinful nature. Of course, this does not remove man's responsibility. Paul went on to describe the positive contradiction between the old and the new natures, that is, the contradiction between the sinful nature and the spiritual life.

"For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not. For I do not do the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice...I find then the law with me who wills to do the good, that is, the evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members" (Rom. 7:18-23). This is indeed the common experience of all believers: to will to do good, yet be unable to do it, and to will to oppose evil, yet be unable to reject it. When temptation comes, a power (the "law") suppresses our desire for holiness. As a result, we speak what we ought not speak and do what we ought not do. Despite many resolutions and vows, we are unable to stop this power from working.

In Galatians Paul described again the conflict between these two natures. "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these oppose each other that you would not do the things that you desire" (5:17). The old nature and the new nature are enemies of each other. Both strive to gain absolute supremacy over us. The old nature has its desires and its power, and the new nature has its also. The two natures exist in us simultaneously. Hence, there is the constant conflict. They are like Esau and Jacob in the womb of Rebekah; the two were diametrically opposed to each other, and at times they fought with each other in the womb. When the Son of God was on earth, all the powers on earth plotted to kill Him. In the same way, while the Son of God lives in our heart as our new life, all the lusts in our flesh strive to remove Him.

Before we go on, we should first understand the characteristics of the two natures. The old nature was born of our flesh. In it, "nothing good dwells" (Rom. 7:18). The new nature is from God. It "cannot sin" (1 John 3:9). The new and the old natures are completely different. Not only do they come from different sources; even their functions are different. However, both exist in the believers. The old nature is the flesh. "And those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8). The new nature is the new spirit. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and reality." Without comparison with the new nature, the old nature, humanly speaking, is not too bad, despite some self-excusing inclinations and lusts. Yet, when a person is regenerated, the new nature comes in with the new life. When both the new and the old natures are put side by side, the true characteristics of the old nature are exposed."

With the new nature as a contrast, the old nature is exposed to be evil, worldly, and devilish. The new nature is holy, heavenly, and divine. Because the old nature, with the passing of time, has become so deeply intertwined with the person himself, it takes quite a period of time to remove this old nature in experience. The new nature has just come into being. Since man's flesh and sinful nature have become too strong, the growth and function of the new nature are suppressed. Of course, we are only speaking from man's point of view. This is like the thorns choking the growth of the seed of the word. Because the two natures are opposite one to another, when temptation comes, a person experiences fierce conflicts. Since the old nature is strong and the new nature weak, a person often ends up doing what he does not desire to do and not doing what he does desire to do. Since the new nature is holy, when a person fails, he feels repentant and condemns himself, and he pleads for the sin-cleansing blood. Brothers, by now, you should understand the reason for your conflicting experiences. This kind of conflict shows most assuredly that you are regenerated.

The most crucial question now is: how can we overcome? In other words, how can we reject the power and work of the old nature, and walk according to the aspirations of the new nature, and thus please the Lord? Let us read three verses:

"But they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit"; "But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh" (vv. 25, 16).

These three verses tell us two ways to overcome the flesh, that is, the sinful nature, the old nature, and the old Adamic nature. Actually, the two ways are merely two aspects, or two phases, of one way. The cross and the Holy Spirit are the unique way to overcome the sinful nature. Other than this way, any human resolutions, determinations, or vows to charity are destined for failure.

We have seen that all our failures are caused by the tenaciousness of the sinful nature; we sink to such a low condition because of it. Hence, whether or not we will overcome depends on whether or not we are able to deal with this sinful nature, which is the flesh. Thank God that though we are helpless, He has the way. He has prepared a way for us on the cross. When the Lord Jesus was crucified on the cross, not only did He die for us, but He crucified our flesh with Him on the cross. Hence, all those who belong to Christ Jesus and are regenerated have their flesh crucified. When He died on the cross, our flesh was crucified there as well. Both the substitutional death and the identifying death have been accomplished by the Lord Jesus. Both are fully accomplished. Formerly, we believed in His substitutional death and were regenerated. Now, in the same way, we believe that our flesh is crucified with Him, and we are brought into the experience of the death of the flesh.

We know that the flesh is always the flesh. This is why God gave us a new life and a new nature. But what shall we do with the flesh? Since God considered it hopeless and impossible, He decided to terminate it, that is, to put it to death. There is no better way than to cause the flesh to die. Hence, "they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts." This puts the flesh to death. This is what the Lord Jesus has accomplished; He has accomplished it already. By crucifying our flesh with Him, it becomes possible now for us to put to death the sinful nature. This has been accomplished without any effort of our own.

How can this co-crucifixion become our experience? We have said that the way is by faith. Romans 6:11 says, "So also you, reckon yourselves to be dead to sin." Sin here refers to the sinful nature which is the flesh. By ourselves, we cannot cause the flesh to die. The only way is by reckoning. Reckoning is an exercise of our will and our faith. This means that in our daily life, we should adopt the attitude that we are dead to the flesh, that we believe in God's word, and that we consider all God's words to be true. God says that our flesh has been crucified with the Lord Jesus; I believe that my flesh is indeed crucified. On the one hand, we believe that we are dead. On the other hand, we adopt the attitude that we are truly dead. If we do this, we will have the genuine experience of dying to sin.

If we reckon this way, we will see the cross freeing us, and the flesh will become powerless. It is true that once we reckon ourselves dead, we will experience instant victory. However, many people experience a gradual deliverance from the power of the flesh. This is either due to their own foolishness or to the lingering of evil spirits. If we persist in faith and if we take the proper attitude in our will, we will eventually overcome. However, this does not mean that henceforth there is no more sinful nature in us and that only the new nature remains. If we say this, we fall into heresy. Not only does this obscure the teaching of the Bible, but it betrays the experience of the saints. Until we are delivered from this body of sin, we will never be free from the "flesh"—the sinful nature—which comes from the body of sin. Even though we have accepted the work of the cross, the fact that the flesh still exists means that we must continually "walk by the Spirit." Only by doing this, will we "by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh."

The cross is the instrument by which we crucify the flesh. The Holy Spirit is the power by which we keep the flesh from resurrecting. On the negative side, we should believe in the co-crucifixion of the cross for the elimination of a life in the flesh. On the positive side, we should walk according to the Spirit so that the flesh will have no chance to be rekindled. Many believers experience the resurrection of their flesh because they fail in this one point. Every time we walk contrary to the Holy Spirit, we give opportunity to the flesh to reign. If in everything we walk according to the Spirit, the flesh will not have any opportunity.

A person can read about this way of overcoming the flesh, the sinful nature, from the Bible; he can hear about it from others. But only when he encounters it in his experience will he realize that it is real. I often tell others that they can experience such a matter the minute they believe. Yet for myself, it took me a long time before I experienced it! What does this mean? Many times we merely strive. Although we say that we trust in the cross, thirty percent of the time we trust in ourselves and in our own "reckoning." Many times God allows us to be defeated so that in the end we would realize that nothing is trustworthy in our experience. Even our own "reckoning" with which we "reckon" ourselves dead is of no merit. This is why it is true to say that as soon as we truly reckon, we have the experience of victory, and it is equally true to say that we enter such experience only through a gradual understanding.

Brothers, by now you can understand our two natures and the way to overcome the flesh. While you are reading, you can exercise your faith to reckon yourself dead to sin, and you can pray that the Holy Spirit of the Lord will apply the cross of the Lord Jesus deeply in you, so that you can overcome sin in your experience. After this, you should resolve to walk by the Holy Spirit. Previously, you have failed in your resolution. Now, you should ask the Holy Spirit to strengthen your will, so that it will be able to incline itself to the new nature. The will is like a rudder; it can turn the whole ship. However, a rudder that does not work is useless. After the Holy Spirit has strengthened you, you should exercise this will to walk according to the Holy Spirit. Remember that the flesh never disappears; it is always there. If you walk by the Holy Spirit, you will be able to crucify the flesh on the cross continually. Otherwise, the flesh will cause suffering to you. The meaning of walking by the Spirit is to trust in the Holy Spirit in a calm way in everything, so that you will bear the nine-in-one fruit of the Holy Spirit. The Lord will lead you experientially step by step into the mystery of this matter. However, on your part, you should be faithful."







_________________
Mike

 2008/11/24 17:01Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: can you prove sin nature?

Quote:
we can be righteous on our own, even through any willful decision to not ever sin, because that is how Jesus was righteous.



Even though I am only about half-way through all these posts, I need to comment on this one.

Quote:
You are promoting heresy when you say it is possible to be righteous on our own. You also are promoting heresy when you say that Jesus proved that we could be righteous on our own because this is how He was righteous. Jesus made it clear that He could do nothing without the Father dwelling in Him. Jesus never acted independent of His Father.

You are promoting a self righteousness like the pharisee's. If man could have a righteousness acceptable to God on His own then Christ would not have died the death of the cross to make atonement for the sins of the whole world. Brother do you understand that we are righteous only through Christ and never of ourselves. God said there is none righteous on their own, no not one because all have corrupted themselves apart from Him.



And that is truth. With man, righteousness and peace with God is impossible but when man is WITH God (or God with man) all things are possible. And that is the whole point -- man was never made with the intention to be apart from the Presence of God or to seek "his own will" apart from the Father's will. Jesus said, "my meat is to do the will of my Father," and that is the example of the Perfect Man. It is perfect obedience to Him and proves what is well-pleasing in His sight. And of course, without faith it is impossible to please Him.

To put it simply, man does not have it in himself to be righteous or justified before God; he was never made to do so by himself. It is only through Christ, the Eternal Son, that man has ever had provision of righteousness and eternal life to the joy of the Father, that is, God working with man. If we should ever attempt to seperate the virtue of man from the Spirit of Life then we make void the cross of Christ.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/24 18:03Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Amen everybody,

Is this not exactly what scripture says:

2 Corinthians 5:14-21 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ , he is a new creature : (a brand new original creation in Christ Jesus) old things (original or primeval) are passed away ; behold , all things are become (including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.) new . including the comparative neoteros neh-o'-ter-os; a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate:--new, young.

Born Again.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/11/24 18:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Jesus was tempted in every point like we are yet without sin.

[b]Yes.[/b]

Quote:
Our trouble is that we sin,

[b]You better stop.[/b]

Quote:
and one sin is enough to damn us.

[b]Yes. Sin comes from the heart.[/b]

Quote:
Thus proving we are "children of wrath".

[b]Yes[/b], sinners are "children of wrath" by nature. Don't miss the context of the passage though. It's talking about people who formerly walked in sin. Babies and little children don't fit into this context. Look:

[color=006600][b]Eph 2:1-3[/b] And you He made alive, who were dead in [u]trespasses and sins, in which you once walked[/u] according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of [u]disobedience[/u], among whom also we all once [u]conducted ourselves[/u] in the lusts of our flesh, [u]fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind[/u], and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.[/color]

See? He's talking to believers. Believers are adults. He's using "children" poetically. "Wrath" doesn't actually give birth or get anyone pregnant. It's figurative language. If they never used figurative language the bible would probably be two pages long. It would help you not to stumble on the language if you understood this: Paul is calling people who used to commit sins children of wrath by nature - it's like saying the nature of sinners is to be under wrath. Or..By definition people who commit sins are in big trouble with God. He's not even talking about children or physical birth or Adam or any of that stuff. You're latching onto that verse maybe cause you heard someone say it means that, but see for yourself, that's not what Paul is saying.

Quote:
Well, we don't have free will.

Who told you that? That paints a picture of a God who sends people to hell without giving them free will to repent. The picture it paints is an image. The image is of a monster. And the monster is the beast. Who taught you this stuff? Even sinners can judge more justly than a god like that. God is no monster. Don't worship that image. Destroy it. It won't cause you to be put to death if you question it's foul doctrine. You will be put to eternal death if you don't think you have free will because as a man thinks so he is. You'll never be able to obey without knowing how obeying works. But you know, you have a conscience. The true God and Father of Jesus Christ is a just judge. He is merciful, compassionate, desiring greatly for sinners to repent. He has given them the choice. He is not wicked. A god who punished men who didn't have a choice would be unjust.

Quote:
Left to our own heart's desires, we would sin and have no desire for Christ.

Then we need to repent. Jesus says love God with all of our hearts. That means we can if we want to. If we don't, forget it. Real hot darkness for a long time.

Quote:
We are born slaves to our sin and must be redeemed or ransomed.


Babies are slaves to sin. They're just weak and unknowing. Once you chose to sin, that's when you needed an atonement. You disobeyed God all on your own. You didn't have to do it. You wanted to do it and chose the wrong thing.

Quote:
This in no way nullifies the cross,

It means that man's sinfulness is a consequence of his birth which is what...Adam's fault? And why does it work that way...passing from Adam to us when we didn't even makes the rules....God's fault? Well you completely pervert the cross if that is the case because it would be saying that Jesus died for sinfulness that is God's fault. [color=006600][EDIT: not [b]you[/b] perverting the cross, the doctrine your saying][/color]

Quote:
it magnifies it by showing the great grace of our God in reconciling us to Him through the wrath atoning sacrifice of Christ the perfect sin bearer.

If by great grace you mean never having to acknowledge your free will chosen sin, earning hell for yourself, and needing to repent or else, shape up or ship out, etc. Then, Yes, it magnifies the perverted version of the cross that has nothing to do with our own free choices to sin.

roaringlamb, your writing looked like a lamb's but the doctrine is really the dragon's. Who taught you we have no free will? Did you grow up hearing that? I know there are passages in the bible that talk about God's foreknowledge and predestination but that doesn't mean God wants to punish you and you can't turn to him by your own free choice and seek him. If you believe God exists and seek him diligently it pleases him. He likes it when you use your free will the right way. He doesn't want to force you. He wants you to want to love him. He doesn't want to zap you with magical power and force you to love him. If that doesn't make sense then you'll end up stumbling on all the passages that focus on God's foreknowledge and power and never understand the heart of the Father nor the call to repentance.

BTW, Do you have a one sentence definition of "sin nature"? You seemed "happy" with number two, but if you desire in your heart to sin you can't love God with all of your heart. If you only desire it in our body, or just have to take thoughts captive then it's just temptation.

Ben

ps - James 3:17 the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, [b]gentle, willing to yield (or easy to be entreated), full of mercy[/b] and good fruits, [b]without partiality[/b] and without hypocrisy.

This verse shows me what God is like. That he's not like the cruel no-free-will god whose favoritism and cold heart "no man dare question!"

 2008/11/24 20:11
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Oops again, sorry.
Darn PDA :-x

 2008/11/24 21:39Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

[quotu]1) if inherited sin means our natural ability to be tempted then it is no cause for guilt. Jesus was able to be tempted.

Jesus was tempted in every point like we are yet without sin. Our trouble is that we sin, and one sin is enough to damn us. Thus proving we are "children of wrath".
[/quoute]
Yes, we chose to sin, stop blaiming your nature, it's your own fault, not God's fault for giving you that nature, nor is it Adam's fault.

Your only justifying yourself.

Quote:
if inherited sin means wanting to sin then we don't have free will, aren't guilty, nullify the cross, and make an image of the beast and worship it.

Well, we don't have free will. Left to our own heart's desires, we would sin and have no desire for Christ.


Untill we are persuaded of the need for Him.
[quoute]We are [b]born slaves to our sin[/b] and must be redeemed or ransomed.

No one is born with their sin.
What did they do in the womb to have sin?
Quote:
This in no way nullifies the cross, it magnifies it by showing the great grace of our God in reconciling us to Him through the wrath atoning sacrifice of Christ the perfect sin bearer.

3) if inherited sin means something about our nature that makes temptation more difficult to resist. Then Jesus had it and overcame. Otherwise antichrist is true.

We are not Jesus and will never resist sin perfectly and that is why we need a perfect obedience to be put to our account.


You don't have a human Jesus in your theology/doctrine.
You dont think jesus was 100% man.

If Jesus was not like His brethren in every way, then He can't be a perfect high priest.
do you know that He took on the nature of Abraham(a man)?
Quote:
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by faith.

So to do away with imputed guilt through Adam, you by default do away with imputed righteousness in Christ.


How so?
Abraham had to do somthing to have righteousness imputed to him, he needed to belive.
So it is with the guilt of sin, we need to actualy do something, which is to have sinned to have guilt imputed to us.
[quoute]Paul's point from Romans 1:16 on to chapter 5 is the unpacking of justification by faith apart from works of the Law. Don't overlook this in reading Romans.

Ever figure that we know what we do by studing Romans?

 2008/11/24 21:56Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

oops!

 2008/11/24 21:59Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks rote:
Quote:
: Logic
First of all, it is possible, Jesus proved your conclusion to be wrong.

Second, we can be righteous on our own, even through any willful decision to not ever sin, because that is how Jesus was righteous.

Logic you are making up your own bible as you go along and all for what purpose. You are promoting heresy when you say it is possible to be righteous on our own.

I'm promoting common sensitive & logic.
Since Jesus was 100% man, made of a woman, made under the law(Galatians 4:4), with the same kind of flesh that we have today(Romans 8:3), with the same nature as we have today(Phil 2:7-8), and He was righteous by choosing to never sin.

This concludes that all mankind kan. The problem is that nobody else but jesus has done it.
Quote:
You also are promoting heresy when you say that Jesus proved that we could be righteous on our own because this is how He was righteous. Jesus made it clear that He could do nothing without the Father dwelling in Him. Jesus never acted independent of His Father.

You are promoting yourself as misquoting Scripture.
No where does it say that He could do nothing without the Father dwelling in Him.
It only said the Godhead dwells in Him, but not that He "could do nothing without the Father dwelling in Him"
Quote:
You are promoting a self righteousness like the Pharisee's. If man could have a righteousness acceptable to God on His own then Christ would not have died the death of the cross to make atonement for the sins of the whole world.

He didn't make atonement because we can't be righteous on our own, but because we all choose to defile ourselves.
Quote:
Brother do you understand that we are righteous only through Christ and never of ourselves. God said there is none righteous on their own, no not one because all have corrupted themselves apart from Him.

We are only righteous through Christ because we chouse to defile our righteousness which we had as infants. We defiled ourselves with our first accountable sin.

Do you know that I'm promoting man's responsibility for his own sin, for his own unrighteousness?
You promote man's responsibility for Adam's sin & Adam's unrighteousness, which makes no sense at all.

Furthermore, if Jesus never sinned just because He was God, He could not be a perfect priest:
[b]Hebrews 2:16[/b] [color=990000]For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of Abraham.
[b]17:[/b] Therefore in all things he had to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
[b]18:[/b] For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help them that are tempted.[/color]
Notice that it say He took n the nature of Abraham ( a man)?

 2008/11/24 22:09Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy