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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

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Jeppe
Member



Joined: 2007/5/14
Posts: 25
The Netherlands

 Re:

Quote:
Also, to prove a doctrine you have to be able to provide multiple text. Hermeneutically you have to interpret the Bible by the Bible. When you run into an unclear difficult verse you have to compare it to all the clear verses. So if one verses "seems" to say something if there are a multitude of verses saying different then that verse needs to be understood in light of the others.



Amen. That's why I said:
Quote:
The text in Acts rather [b]seems[/b] to indicate that Jesus became Gods Son after he was raised from the dead.
[b]However we know from varius scriptures[/b] that Jesus was already the Son of God when he walked the earth.[/b]



It looks like you do not really follow your own advise when you say:
Quote:
Thou art my Son this day I have begotten Thee seems to mean to me that Jesus became the Son when the Father begat Him.



Please, read Acts 13:30-33 carefuly:

30 But [b]God raised him from the dead:[/b] 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that [b]he hath raised up Jesus again;[/b] [u]as it is also written in the second psalm[/u], [b]Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.[/b]

I doubt that it can be any clearer that 'this day I have begotten thee' is about the ressurection.

And because this verse talks about the resurrection it does not talk about his birth in the flesh. And because it does not talk about his birth in the flesh, you can't correctly use this verse to prove that Jesus became the Son of God when he came in the flesh. And because there are many verses that say Jesus is the Son of God when he was on the earth we can conclude that "Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee" has nothing to do with Jesus becoming the Son, but with Him being the Son. Paraphrase: You ARE my Son and this day, my Son, I ressurected you as a firstborn from the dead. (As prophesied in the psalms)

Just in case you think that this is one single verse in the bible that speaks of Jesus resurection as a birth, please consider this vers

Col 1:18
[i]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, [b]the firstborn from the dead;[/b] that in all things he might have the preeminence[/i]

You are right that with the above I didn't prove that Jesus has always been the Son. But if you read carefully and honestly you must admit that your claim of Him becoming the Son when He came in the flesh is unsubstantiated.

[i]Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.[/i] Amen!


_________________
Jeppe

 2008/11/18 17:40Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Ben,

Quote:
that divides Christ.


I am not so sure what you mean. I believe that Jesus is fully man and fully God. He is not 50/50 but 100/100. He is God in the flesh. How is He divided? He is the eternal infinite Logos/God who was born of a virgin begotten of the Father and thus became the Son of God in His humanity.

 2008/11/18 17:43Profile









 Re:

Do you believe that before the Word became flesh that the Father was no Father at all?

 2008/11/18 17:51
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Ben Joseph said, "Do you believe that before the Word became flesh that the Father was no Father at all?"

Well, folks, that settles it for me.

David, my brother, for four years and more you and I have discussed this issue. I will say publicly that I know you to be a compassionate, thoughtful, and ready learner. I trust you will receive correction the moment your conscience allows and that you are no lover of intellectual bobbles.

That being said, you are either a genius or a heretic. And, being against 2000 years of eminent saints, more holy and profound than yourself, it is a hard gamble to bet against the charge of heresy.

I exhort everyone to pray for David to receive an understanding, because I have known him to follow his conscience in all other areas of his life. Perhaps the Lord will grant him repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

As well, many thanks to everyone who has posted such useful information. I feel I have a better grasp of the Trinitarian position than ever before. Your posts were well spent, as the Lord won many praises from my lips by them.

 2008/11/18 18:08Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Before the foundation of the earth. As I said earlier Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the earth but not actually only certainly. So even if he were saying you have loved me as the Son He could mean that He loved Him in this way looking forward prophetically.



[color=000066] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)[/color]

Is the 'me' that Christ is referring to here the 'I' that shared in the glory before the world was? Is it the same [i]person[/i]?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/18 18:08Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
davidt wrote:
Quote:
Jesus is in the flesh glorified. The Holy Spirit is a spirit. The Father is Totaly other than, not a Spirit or in flesh.

Yes I agree. I am not so sure about that last statement though.

What "last statement"?

 2008/11/18 18:22Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Jeppe,

Quote:
The text in Acts rather seems to indicate that Jesus became Gods Son after he was raised from the dead.


Well, I have thought about that more thoroughly. I am not sure that I can say that verse only refers to post resurrection. In John 3 and many other places Jesus is called the only begotten. So I believe that the verse in Psalms 2 can refer both to his original birth and his resurrection birth. It is noted that Peter chose to use it in context to the resurrection. However I would also like to say this. Peter did not say it didn't refer to the original verse as well. On top of that the Father often spoke from heaven testifying saying You are my beloved Son. So there may have been no need to quote psalm 2 when it was God Himself talking. This may very well have been what Psalms 2 was talking about though the word today and begotten are omitted. As for the epistles that are not biographies and narratives they may have just not touched on the subject.


Quote:
But if you read carefully and honestly you must admit that your claim of Him becoming the Son when He came in the flesh is unsubstantiated.


I do believe that I just previously explained why psalm 2 may still apply to the original birth. However, even if it is the case that that verse is only talking about the resurrection there are still others:

Luke 1:32 He will be great and [b]will be called the Son of the Most High[/b]. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered her, "The [b]Holy Spirit will come upon you[/b], and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; [b]therefore[/b] the child to be born will be called holy--the [b]Son of God[/b].


p.s. Thanks for being scholarly and pointing out I appreciate the challenge "psalms 2/ resurrection".

 2008/11/18 18:34Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Benjoseph,

Quote:
Do you believe that before the Word became flesh that the Father was no Father at all?


Well, in a sense God was the father of man and angels since they were both called sons of God. He was in a sense always the Father of Jesus because it was prophetically decreed. But in the actual sense He was not always the Father of His Word until Jesus was born.

 2008/11/18 18:40Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Mike,

Quote:
Ben Joseph said, "Do you believe that before the Word became flesh that the Father was no Father at all?" Well, folks, that settles it for me.


I have responded to Ben's post and just because God was not always the Father of Jesus until He was born does not make me a heretic unless it is unbiblical.


Quote:
That being said, you are either a genius or a heretic. And, being against 2000 years of eminent saints, more holy and profound than yourself, it is a hard gamble to bet against the charge of heresy.


I don't think you have to be a genius to understand this. I do sympathize with the whole 200 year thing but I don't think that should be your sole basis of your view on the Triunity.


Quote:
I exhort everyone to pray for David to receive an understanding,


I think as I said earlier that if you are going to come to this conclusion and make this statement that you should back it up with reason. There are no evidences in this post other then the fact that I break tradition or don't run in the mainstream of the Christian opinion which is often just a claim of clouded mystery and this is no proof in itself.

 2008/11/18 18:47Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Robert,

Quote:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(John 17:5) Is the 'me' that Christ is referring to here the 'I' that shared in the glory before the world was? Is it the same person?


He is not speaking of his humanity as the Son but His Divinity as the Logos. When He says Me He is talking about His Divinity just as when He says I.

This brings up a difficult topic and I don't want to go too far in it. Sometimes it is hard to tell when Jesus is acting from His humanity and when from His Divinity. I have need to think more on this subject so only speak partially. But, I believe that when He would manifest His glory at times He was manifesting His Divinity. Or at times He would say I do not know only the Father knows at those times I would believe He is speaking from His humanity. But I really need to look into it more.

 2008/11/18 18:59Profile





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