SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 Next Page )
PosterThread
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Quote:
"there remaining no longer any distinction in the persons of the glorious Trinity, as acting any distinct or separate parts in either the kingdom of grace, or the kingdom of glory, and so the One infinite essence shall appear undivided and eternal."


First off, the Trinity has no distinct or seperate "parts"; that concept is the error of modalism. So there is no necessity or reason in justifying the idea to no longer distinguish the Three eternal Persons of the Trinity.
Secondly, the One infinite essence already appears undivided and eternal.
Thirdly, Jesus Christ is "Creator God" just as the Father is "Creator God" and the Holy Spirit is "Creator God" -- yet not three "Creator God"s but One.

Quote:
"It will be our belief that The Creator GOD died on that Cross"


"It will be..." So what exactly are you trying to say? That this isn't already our belief?
Do you believe the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit died as One upon the cross? Do you believe the relationship between the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit will be done away with (that is, that God shall change)?

Quote:
Son supposes time, generation, and father; and time also antecedent to such generation: therefore the rational conjunction of these two terms, Son and eternity, is absolutely impossible, as they imply essentially different and opposite ideas."


"Son supposes time": No, only humans suppose, this is an interpretation of philosophy and not a biblical definition.
If God has revealed Himself as Father, Son, & Holy Ghost then the only conclusion is that God has always, and will always be, Father, Son, & Holy Ghost. "Father" and "Son" do not suppose any relation to time but are symbolic of the eternal relationship of God the Father with God the Son -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word."
That is God with God -- the Father with the Son.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/12 13:46Profile









 Re:

Hello dear boG. I couldn't help but notice that the quotes that you've questioned were partial quotes and the answers to your questions were within my post if read in it's entirety.

As for the last quote you added to the end of your post - that was not from my post - but I do fully agree with Clarke and in this case, with davidt that The Logos became "the Son" at conception, and since HIS Return to Glory, has the Glory that He possessed Eternally - The Alpha and Omega, The First and The Last, The Great "I AM" - back on HIS Throne.

Amen, it is written "THIS DAY" have I "begotten" Thee .... and both high-lighted words convey "time" - as you quoted from Clarke I believe.

HIS 'former' Glory is through-out the entire O.T. - as HE is "The One True GOD", "The LORD", and even "Savior".
Every Name pertaining to The GOD of the Old Testament is HIS Name and Who HE is - The LORD our GOD is One.

Not three gods - but GOD manifested(ing) in Three, until "that Day", after the Millenial Reign --- as quoted in my post at the end of this previous page.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: [u]God was "manifest" in the flesh[/u], justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

_____________________________________________

To finish the main quote that you cut in half and then questioned - it read in full -

[b]"It will be our belief that The Creator GOD died on that Cross that will be the trial of our faith in the last days but also our Strength.
Whenever I look at a cross, I say "Creator GOD" and smile - because HE will Return the Victor and GOD of all of the earth. We'll "see HIM as HE is."[/b]

That we may Know HIM - The Only True GOD.

GOD Bless.

 2008/12/12 14:43
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Bob,

Quote:
I was unaware that davidt was holding to an Arian belief if that is what you are implying.


I do not hold to an Arian view. This is a false statement from Ron. I have previously explained this twice and reasonably. What I am saying is vastly different from that of Arian.

 2008/12/12 21:33Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Bog,

Scripturally God desires to glorify Himself. Therefore God desires to love Himself. Therefore God is God centered. Therefore He is self centered. Therefore He is selfish. How to you respond to this and the scriptures I previously provided?

From what I was understanding you were saying God does not love Himself since love does not seek its own. And since to love yourself is to seek your own God must not love Himself.

From what I was understanding you were saying that we cannot love our children if they are unsaved since they are completely evil if they are not born again. Maybe you mean we can love them to salvation and as our enemies but not just as our children. If this is what you are saying then I disagree because I believe we can love our children just as our children.

Unsaved people can do good and love. As I stated earlier I don't have full clarity on this matter. However even if man were completely evil and could never do good that would not compromise my understanding of the Triunity since I say that God loves Himself yet it is okay since He has a good nature. I will say though thus far the understanding that I have come to is that unsaved man can do good though there is none who does enough good or mostly good. Specifically I don't emphatically believe that unsaved man can love God though I think they can to a degree but I do think that they can love each other. Paul testified that the Jews had a zeal for God. To have zeal is to have desire for and to have desire for is to love. Fathers love their children and this is a righteous love. Police officers do good in that they serve the Lord in righteousness. Proverbs says a righteous man lay up an inheritance for his children and there are parents who lay up an inheritance for their children out of love for them.

Luke 7:4-5 And when they came to Jesus, they pleaded with him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he is the one who built us our synagogue."

Acts 10:22 And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation,

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God.

Luke 23:50-51 Now there was a man named Joseph, from the Jewish town of Arimathea. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man, who had not consented to their decision and action; and he was looking for the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 13:22 A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God.

Rom 10:2 I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God,

 2008/12/12 22:21Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

In light of Jesus saying that I and My Father are one.

Here is a question, when we are speaking of God as Spirit does it matter whether we call Him Father, Jesus Christ(Son), or Holy Spirit.

Here is another question. Is it possible to honor any one of the three manifestations of God more than the other. According to scripture we can not know nor honor the Father except through the Son.

 2008/12/12 22:37Profile









 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Thank you again for this discussion.

It can impact our witnessing to those of other religions and give better understanding to them of Who "The WORD of GOD" is, and that would clear many misunderstandings and misconceptions.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are [u]One. [/u]

[Not much different than that man consists of "body, soul & spirit"]

-------------------------------------------------

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God [u]will[/u] [future tense] raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, [u]of thy brethren, like unto me[/u]; unto him ye shall hearken

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet [u]shall[/u] the Lord your God [u]raise up[/u] unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet[u] shall[/u] the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.


Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, [u]which was 'made' [/u] of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 [u]And declared to be the Son of God[/u] with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead


2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ [u]of the seed of David[/u] was raised from the dead according to my gospel

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but[u] he took on him the seed of Abraham. [/u]

This is "the Seed" which GOD had used to "BEGET" The Son, as GOD manifest in the flesh. He could not be the "Son", until He was begotten by and through the heritage of the woman, ie.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, "I Am."

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the 'only begotten' of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

KEY WORD - "Begotten" - G3439
monogene¯s
Thayer Definition:
1) single of its kind, only
1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God


Heb 1:4 Being [u]made[/u] so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, [u]this day have I begotten thee[/u]? And again, I [u][b]will [/b] [future tense] be to him a Father, and he [b]shall be[/b] [future tense] to me a Son? [/u]


Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and "took upon him" the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. {The Son 'had' to be born of this lineage and not until this fulness of times, when the Son's geneaology was complete.}

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy 'thing' which shall be born of thee [u]shall be[/u] called the Son of God.

By Adam Clarke on Luke 1:35 -
"Here, I trust, I may be permitted to say, with all due respect for those who differ from me, that the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ is, in my opinion, anti-scriptural, and highly dangerous. This doctrine I reject for the following reasons: -

[u]1st. I have not been able to find any express declaration in the Scriptures concerning it.[/u]

2dly. If Christ be the Son of God as to his Divine nature, then he cannot be eternal; for son implies a father; and father implies, in reference to son, precedency in time, if not in nature too. Father and son imply the idea of generation; and generation implies a time in which it was effected, and time also antecedent to such generation.

3dly. If Christ be the Son of God, as to his Divine nature, then the Father is of necessity prior, consequently superior to him.

4thly. Again, if this Divine nature were begotten of the Father, then it must be in time; i.e. there was a period in which it did not exist, and a period when it began to exist. This destroys the eternity of our blessed Lord, and robs him at once of his Godhead.

5thly. To say that he was begotten from all eternity, is, in my opinion, absurd; and the phrase eternal Son is a positive self-contradiction. Eternity is that which has had no beginning, nor stands in any reference to Time. Son supposes time, generation, and father; and time also antecedent to such generation. Therefore the conjunction of these two terms, Son and eternity is absolutely impossible, as they imply essentially different and opposite ideas.
The enemies of Christ’s Divinity have, in all ages, availed themselves of this incautious method of treating this subject, and on this ground, have ever had the advantage of the defenders of the Godhead of Christ. This doctrine of the eternal Sonship destroys the deity of Christ; now, if his deity be taken away, the whole Gospel scheme of redemption is ruined. On this ground, the atonement of Christ cannot have been of infinite merit, and consequently could not purchase pardon for the offenses of mankind, nor give any right to, or possession of, an eternal glory. The very use of this phrase is both absurd and dangerous; therefore let all those who value Jesus and their salvation abide by the Scriptures. This doctrine of the eternal Sonship, as it has been lately explained in many a pamphlet, and many a paper in magazines, I must and do consider as an awful heresy, and mere sheer Arianism; which, in many cases, has terminated in Socinianism, and that in Deism. From such heterodoxies, and their abetters, may God save his Church! Amen!" [end quote]

My own thoughts - a Son is forever beneath and subservient to The Father. The Son was "obedient" to The Father through-out His earthly life .... whereas, "obedience" was not necessary, nor even a part of the Old Testament accounts of GOD ... He was ONE GOD, with one "mind" and every Word and Action proceded from this One GOD.

~ Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
~ Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; [u]and there is none else. [/u]
~ Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.


The WORD of GOD was totally Equal to and was GOD from Eternity.
From Revelation 19 we see the "The WORD of GOD" will be returning with a new Name that no one knows but Himself.

At HIS Return, HE will fulfill all the Old and New Testament prophesies of "GOD on earth" and not as HE was at the time of His First Advent - before HE resurrected and received back HIS former Glory.

His purposes at His First Advent were three fold. First to show The Nature of GOD ["if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."] Secondly, to teach us how to live in total dependence and obedience to the Father through & by HIS Spirit, as our example - and finally, as the Sacrificial Lamb of GOD.

Why would this fact, that The Word of GOD is not the Eternal 'Son' be such an important understanding to grasp ? Because - HE will fulfill ALL Prophecies of the Old and New Testaments regarding "GOD ruling the earth" in and of Himself - and as The One GOD - As The Great "I AM" - there will be no distinctions of power, authority, headship, subservience, obedience between a Father and a son, as there was 'only' during HIS First Advent, before HE reclaimed HIS Throne. The Three in One will again be as "in the beginning" - Equal in Power, Mind, Action and Authority.

Many religions have made the "Son of GOD" a "Lesser god" than GOD The Father. Some seeing only a Babe in a manger or a pitiful body still on the cross - and this alone is blasphemous. HE is The ONE GOD from Eternity and 100% Equal with "The Father".
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The CO-Equality is seen through-out the entire Old Testament. The Logos spoke everything into existance, and all things were made by and for HIM.
The Name "Logos", means more than just "words" --- but the nature and intelligence behind the words and is not the same word used for random words alone.

"Out of the abundance of the heart - the mouth speaketh" ---- The Logos was in the bosom of the Father, symbolically where the heart is --- The Logos was the expression of GOD's heart or "Nature".
It was The Logos speaking through the Prophets as "thus saith The LORD", in the first person.

Rev 19 & 21 - It will be The Logos Who will take back this earth from man's dominion, as The One True Creator GOD - "The Almighty".

At that time, man will understand that "this" is the One True GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - The One Creator & Eternal GOD.

Rev 1:8 ~ I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, The "Almighty".

{ Exo 6:3 And I 'appeared' unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God "Almighty" ....

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am He.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last.

Rev 1:11 I Am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.....

2Co 6:18 And I will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.....

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


The LORD said, "That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:23)... which is repeated again in the New Testament of The Word of GOD, now called Jesus --- Until HIS Return. Rev 19 & 21 - When HE comes with HIS new Name and we see HIM 'as' HE IS - and Every knee will bow before "GOD our Savior".

Praise GOD for the Blessed Hope of HIS future Coming ... all this famine, disease, pain, tears, murder and evil will cease and for those who believe on HIM - Eternal Paradise With HIM - Amen !

 2008/12/13 3:09
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: everyword that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

Hi again everyone,


boG,


"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Love does not seek it's own.

The Lord Jesus in the same prayer said

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

- John 17:9-10(KJV)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have just proven my point Chris. You make God dependant upon man in order to love perfectly."



But boG, I only qouted the scripture?



I think there is a tremendous difficulty in writting about things like this and trying to offer explanations for things which are not clearly revealed and [b]expressly stated[/b]. The secret things belong to the Lord.




The Lord Jesus said,



...[b][color=330000]My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, [i]whether[/i] it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
[/color][/b]

- John 7:16-18(KJV)


And yet we can easily write [b]pages upon pages[/b] trying to explain the very nature of God? For sure the scripture will be qouted, but what about all the words inbetween? Are they God's? Our own?



Just recently, I recieived as a daily devotional an item about the Trinity. In it, the author says after stating some things about the doctrine of the Trinity


"Although these truths are implicit throughout the New Testament, the doctrine of the Trinity is seldom, if ever, presented therein explicitly as a formal doctrine."



But it is presentend explicity as a formal doctrine in the words of men [b]and those words[/b] are held over others who are forced to accept and say them, except they be called heretics?



Take for instance in this thread. In a rebuke against the person that started this thread, he was sent to three men, who it was claimed could beat the heresy out of him, one of whom supposedly wrote a whole book on the subject.




The Apostle Paul, as far as I know, never wrote a whole book on the subject of 'eternal sonship' of Christ, but, he did write this:





[b][color=000000]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:



God was manifest in the flesh,

justified in the Spirit,

seen of angels,

preached unto the Gentiles,

believed on in the world,

received up into glory. [/color][/b]


- 1Timothy 3:16(KJV)




Maybe, if we should have need for a creed, or a dogma, that everyone of us must confess, this would be more suitable then the multitude of words and explanations that have been written in the centuries since then.




"Every word of God [i]is[/i] pure. He [i]is[/i] a shield to them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

- Proverbs 30:5-6(KJV)


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/13 9:46Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re:

Just offering a suggestion but you all may want to listen to Art Katz's sermon:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=7149]That They May Be One[/url]


_________________
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2008/12/13 13:59Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Rbanks,

Quote:
In light of Jesus saying that I and My Father are one.

Here is a question, when we are speaking of God as Spirit does it matter whether we call Him Father, Jesus Christ(Son), or Holy Spirit.

Here is another question. Is it possible to honor any one of the three manifestations of God more than the other. According to scripture we can not know nor honor the Father except through the Son.


No it doesn't matter what title we ascribe to Him in a sense since they are all the same essentially. Actually, the point that Jesus was making in saying that He was one with the Father was that He was God and that there is no difference. Yet, it does matter in that they do have distinction in role and function. For example with our salvation the Father ordains the Son saves and the Spirit seals. Also we cannot come to the Father unless we first go through the Son and so on.

Also, we cannot honor one revelation of God above another since all are equally God. It does seem though yet subtle that many do exalt one above another as if one is greater then another. It is not as if one bows down to another in being lesser or worship but the Spirit and the Son do do the Fathers bidding since He is the head. Your head may tell your hands and feet to do something but that does not mean that they are less then you since they are you.

 2008/12/13 17:32Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Jesus-is-God,

Thank your for your posts. I am blessed by the extensive thoughts on the matter. I have not delved in as far as possibly you and Clarke on the matter in a specific way. I have so long been alone in the matter. I have brought it up to close friends that I respected and none of them had anything to say some quietly agreed and others vaguely responded in a way that they were not yet ready to talk of such lofty subjects. Here on SI is the first time that I have had constructive conversation on the matter. And, now I hear from you and Clarke. I at first did not know who Clarke was even as Bob earlier mentioned him. I later remembered that He wrote commentaries. I am now excited to read some of his thorough treaties on this topic. I read that he has written probably the most comprehensive commentary ever written by one man.

I did hesitate at first to respond to your earlier comment because I am not sure that I understand it and may not agree with it. I think that my distinction with Clarke and probably yourself is the eternal Sonship but I also believe that The Logos, Father/God/Head, and Spirit share the same personality as we do with our word and spirit with possible exception to the Son in His humanity. I deny this multiple personality teaching in light of scripture and in that it is unsound and turns off evangelistically those who are monotheistic. So what did you mean when you said:

Quote:
"When the administration of the kingdom of grace is finally closed; when there shall be no longer any state of probation, and consequently no longer need of a distinction between the kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory; then the Son, as being man and Messiah, shall cease to exercise any distinct dominion and God be all in all: there remaining no longer any distinction in the persons of the glorious Trinity, as acting any distinct or separate parts in either the kingdom of grace, or the kingdom of glory, and so the One infinite essence shall appear undivided and eternal."


Did you mean that the personalities will cease? Because I don't think there were multiple personalities in the first place. Or that the distinct functions will cease to be distinct? Because I think they will still be intact. Or that the Son will no longer be? For I am confident that the Son will remain and the Spirit and so forth.

 2008/12/13 18:02Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy