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davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Chrisjd,

Quote:
This seems to be the kind of thing that can be gendered by these discussions and become destructive to us?


I agree with you to certain degrees and in certain senses.

 2008/12/5 19:13Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Bog,

Quote:
It is nice to know you are making a list David.


Yes I am making a list and so you can know that I am paying attention and reasoning through these things with diligence not in ignorance and delusion. I also want to make a list so as to better respond possibly something like a FAQ.


Quote:
Indeed, how humorous,


Well yes i agree of course.
I want to state that I did not mean to say "funny" in a bad attitude.


Quote:
Whatever is not of faith is sin.


Well yes I agree of course. However unsaved people can do things that aren't sin. Like natural things like feeding yourself. You can eat in a way that is not sinful.


Quote:
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


This is what I am talking about. Our members or body are neutral. A born again Christian for instance can use his body for good or for bad. So that is what I am saying your body in itself is not sinful it is when your body mixes with and obeys the sin in it.


Quote:
This very well attends us to hate our children and family and ourselves. As Paul wrote, "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." If you truly loved your children you would love only the image of Christ formed in them.


Some may have children who are not saved and so do not have a born again nature but they are still to love them.


Quote:
This love spoken of here is not speaking of God specifically. Not every time that love is mentioned is it talking about God. There is a love that is not God in His essence it is only that love that God has created outside of Himself just as He is not the trees so there is love that is not Him. So this verse is in context to mans love


Unsaved men can have love. They might not have love toward God but they may have it toward man. There is a love that an unsaved man can have that is love and is not sinful. If everything that is not from the born again nature and directly from the anointing of the Holy Spirit then we would be more extreme then monks we would not last a day. God has made the creation and there is still good in it. And so good can be found in the creation apart from a specific being born again and anointed since the creation already has good in it. Note I am not saying totally apart from the Holy Spirit since He is God who was responsible for the creation of the world.


Quote:
God is Love because He does not seek His own


This is in a sense true and in a sense not. It is true in the sense that God loves to give and that is loving and is not selfish toward a sinful nature especially since He does not have one unlike us. It is not true in the sense that God does love Himself and does seek His own for to love Himself is love since He is love and to love love is love. Even in giving He is seeking His own since that is a loving act and He is love plus all things are unto Him and for His glory.


Quote:
Fourth, the scriptures don't specifically say anywhere that God had to have multiple personalities or else He would have no one to love and therefore would not be loving.


I can see where you would think the Scriptures teach the Triunity in your view. I am not specifically talking about that. What I am talking about is that the Bible doesn't set forth emphatically to use the philosophical reasonings that you do in saying that God has to be 3 persons to have someone to love. I can see where you would think it says that God has 3 personalities but nowhere does it say that God had to have 3 persons to love. I am stating that you are emphasizing this point and the Bible never mentions it and that it is ironic that you repeat and yet the Bible never even states specifically what you are saying so Craig or someone is quoted.


Quote:
Where does this concept of "giving yourself to yourself" come from? I have heard of "giving yourself to do" but "giving yourself to yourself to do"?


You give yourself a break or rest or what not this is reasonable.


Quote:
And, again, you are fashioning the nature of God after the image of the creature.


I have often said that God is not like us as you have quoted. I also go no further then what the Scriptures say. The scripture use human analogy like word, spirit, and so on and so I apply these things in analogy to God. We are in the image of God and though these things are not full they still can be applied significantly.


I think if I am right a lot of the things you are saying are not well. You are saying that all normal things we do like eating are sinful. You are saying that we are to only love the born again image of Christ in our children therefore we are not to love our children if they are unsaved. I think that a lot of your posts have been written from you sinful flesh. I think that the issue is not my teaching with the Triunity specifically but with all these side doctrinal issues that you have gone to extremes in in your zeal and lack of spiritual growth and insight. A lot of what you have written are just nit picking semantics. And a whole bunch of other stuff and I think are in error in this sense and need to repent and I don't say that in a bad attitude. However I have continued to answers your questions in part just to help you with your theology on these issues. So one again I am going to by discretion discourse with you on these matters. You should be able to see that I am not the unreasonable one I am paying attention to what you and others are saying as you have seen I am writing a list. I am doing my best to straight forwardly answer questions with reason. It is true that some verses are hard and I feel that you are taking these verse and trying to use them against me. Like for instance when you debate Mormons or JW's they will pick out some difficult verses and then try to make a whole theology out of it and it is hard to reason with them.


Also Bog, I said a couple things and you did not respond to them with a direct answer but with an answer in the form of a question. So, here is the question once more or the statement that I would like for you to respond to. The Bible clearly states that God desires to glorify Himself and that is a central Christian teaching that He desires to be worshiped saying holy is He worthy of glory and honor ect. therefore since God desires to glorify Himself that means He desires to love Himself since they are one and the same. So please respond to this and the verses I have supplied.

Jeremiah 13:11: For as the waistcloth clings to the loins of a man, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, says the Lord, [b]that they might be for me[/b] a people, a name, a praise, and a [b]glory[/b].

Isaiah 48:11; For my own sake, for my own sake I do it, for how should my name be profaned? [b]My glory I will not give to another[/b].

Romans 11:36; "[b]All things are[/b] from him and through him and [b]to him[/b]"

Ephesians 1:11-12; In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, [b]so that we[/b] who were the first to hope in Christ [b]might be to the praise of his glory[/b].

 2008/12/5 20:00Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Ron,

Quote:
perhaps you could consider this; if Christ is not the eternal Son then how do you deal with Old Testament Scriptures that are attributed to the Son in the New Testament? For example... Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." Applied to Christ in Hebrews 1:8, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." Psalm 68:17,18, "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the LORD is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.". Applied to the Son in Ephesians 4:8-10, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens that he might fill all things." Psalm 110:1, "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand." Applied to Christ by Himself, Matthew 22:44. Psalm 102:25-27, "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end." Applied to the Son in Hebrews 1:10-12. Isaiah 6:1-3, "I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphim: each one had six wings; With twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Applied to the Son in John 12:41.


I have answered this once or more during this thread. These verses apply to the Logos.

 2008/12/5 20:06Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi boG, thank you for your time and thought in responding to me.




I wanted to suggest a few things about this if I could?



"It would be a very strange doctrine, if it was suddenly called divine love to love one's self. Love is always loving others."



Yes, but, we(our[b]selves[/b]) are not God? Not glorious or infinite or majestic...

But I thought too of how Christ, Who is called the image of God is called the beloved(Mat 3:17).





Dear boG, I hope it will be alright if I do not answer your questions near the bottom of your response to me, directly. I feel an apprehension in discussing these things. I do not want to approach them as philosophy or reasoning.



I would like to suggest again that the exhortation in Corinthians is given to us that we might know how the love of God should be expressed [b]among us[/b] and not rather to suggest to us if it was nescessary or not for there to be a mulitplicity of persons in God in order that He Himself should be love.



I think that we are given by faith the declaration that God is and was Holy before He ever created anything to be seperate from. That He is and Was Almighty before He ever created anything that was weak or either exercised His power to create. That He is and was infinite before He took on flesh. That He is and was eternal before there was time.






Because He is what He is. The "I AM that I AM".




Wish you and the others grace and peace in Christ.



[i]Edited to add the phrase 'is and' to the last two lines of the last paragraph[/i]


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/5 21:20Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Quote:
Also Bog, I said a couple things and you did not respond to them with a direct answer but with an answer in the form of a question. So, here is the question once more or the statement that I would like for you to respond to.


If there are any questions you feel I have not directly answered then please ask them again. You have also responded to a few of my questions, but not answered.

Quote:
"Indeed, how humorous"

Well yes i agree of course.
I want to state that I did not mean to say "funny" in a bad attitude.


And I did not take it as though you were in a bad attitude. My point is bring to your attention that all of my reasonings have been birthed out of Scripture. No doubt, you may say the same.

Quote:
The Bible clearly states that God desires to glorify Himself and that is a central Christian teaching that He desires to be worshiped saying holy is He worthy of glory and honor ect. therefore since God desires to glorify Himself that means He desires to love Himself since they are one and the same. So please respond to this and the verses I have supplied.


And it is a central Christian teaching. However, what I have seen you doing is this, rather than saying why God is worthy of all glory, or for what it is we praise Him, you quote a verse which merely says He is worthy of all glory. You say God is love and this is true. How do we know He is love? -- He is patient ([b]2 Peter 3:15[/b]), He is kind ([b]Luke 6:35[/b]), He is just ([b]Romans 12:19[/b]), etc., etc. He fulfills every aspect of love (ie. [b]1 Corinthians 13[/b]) that is revealed in Scripture. Not only this but His love is perfect love; which means that every aspect of love ([b]1 Corinthians 13[/b]) is fully contained in every thought, word, and deed of God (ie. His mercy is not unjust but fulfills even His justice). And at no time has God ever been angry without kindess, or merciful without justice, or high and lofty without humbleness (even condescending towards man); and such mysteries are only comprehended through a revelation of His holiness, which is the embodied expression of His love. If you were to make a list of every attribute of God you could apply every single one of them (ie. [b]1 Corinthians 13[/b]) without contradiction to every act of violence, wrath, judgment, rebuke, correction, mercy, kindness, etc., which the Bible has testified concerning God. This includes every thought, word, and deed of God as a perfect love which always leads to not seek His own but to love others: defining the righteousness of our Creator. Therefore it is not enough to simply read "God is worthy of all glory" or "God is love", such verses are the greatest of all revelations while revealing nothing. We are left wondering, what is "glory"; what is "love"; who is God and why is He worthy? That is why God has revealed Himself by a host of wonderful names. That is why we have the Scriptures that testify to the works of the Almighty God because His words and deeds and the witness of His Spirit reveal to us, in part, who He is. Such that He says, "you shall be holy (and "perfect", and "pure"), for I AM Holy".
A.W. Tozer has an excellent sermon on this point, here on Si, called [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2295&commentView=itemComments]Attributes of God (Series 1): God's Omnipresence and Immanence[/url]

If I should say that "God loves Himself" (and He does) then I do say so as a Trinitarian. Such that what I truly say is: The Trinity is a beautiful balance of perfect individuality and perfect unity in harmony -- the Godhead being the perfect representation of divine love. The Father loves the Son and the Spirit and seeks to exalt (glorify) them; the Son loves the Father and the Spirit and seeks to exalt (glorify) them; the Spirit loves the Father and the Son and seeks to exalt (glorify) them. This is a relational emphasis which your Oneness doctrine cannot touch. I mentioned this previously. For example, we read the Father glorified the Son,
[b]Philippians 2:9[/b], "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him (Jesus), and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name".
And, [b]John 8:54[/b], Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God'".
And, again, [b]John 17:1[/b], "Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, 'Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You'".
Likewise, [b]John 5:19[/b], Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
[b]John 5:30[/b], "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
In this way, each Person in the Godhead does not seek His own but seeks to love and honor one another; in this way does God love Himself as love.
I don't recall ever saying that God "must" be Trinity or else He cannot love. But I have been specific to say that Modalism, or a Oneness doctrine, defines a Godhead that cannot love Himself with the perfection of divine love revealed in Scripture: the very representation that personifies the Godhead in Trinity.

Quote:
"Whatever is not of faith is sin."

Well yes I agree of course. However unsaved people can do things that aren't sin. Like natural things like feeding yourself. You can eat in a way that is not sinful.


You will find no such teaching in the Bible. No sir, not even once, not even a hint of such a suggestion.
"Well yes I agree of course. However unsaved people can do things that aren't sin." Then no you don't agree.
Do sinners feed themselves to prove what is acceptable and pleasing to God? Do sinners feed themselves in loving obedience to Christ with a thankful heart? Do sinners feed themselves by faith?
The problem is not that people sometimes sin, the problem is that they have never done anything but sin because they are sinners. They eat and drink condemnation to themselves because they feast upon the mercies of God but do not honor Him as God, neither are they thankful but boast in their own strength. Only Christians "can eat in a way that is not sinful".

Quote:
"but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."

This is what I am talking about. Our members or body are neutral. A born again Christian for instance can use his body for good or for bad. So that is what I am saying your body in itself is not sinful it is when your body mixes with and obeys the sin in it.


Pay very close attention to this: the body itself is neither good nor bad, even though the body (with the whole of creation) is subject under the curse and we await the salvation of our bodies.
[b]Romans 14:14[/b], "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself".
But you are not talking about the body itself; you are talking about what man does with his own body and unregenerate man never ceases to defile his body or to defile his conscience.

Quote:
Unsaved men can have love. They might not have love toward God but they may have it toward man. There is a love that an unsaved man can have that is love and is not sinful. If everything that is not from the born again nature and directly from the anointing of the Holy Spirit then we would be more extreme then monks we would not last a day.


Unsaved men cannot have love because unsaved men do not have the love of God shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. Carnal man's love one for another is no true love at all. If you honestly believe "There is a love that an unsaved man can have that is love and is not sinful" then you are teaching a demonic doctrine and have no concept of the exceeding sinfulness of sin. If an unregenerate man has a love that is not sin then you declare a sinner's love to be good, or righteous, before the face of God. It has been a suspicion of mine, from differing comments you have made, and perhaps confirmed by this one, that you have a very low and base view of divine love (which may or may not have some influence with your rejection of the Trinity). I should suspect no more considering how vaguely you have declared God to be love. And I strongly suggest you be very careful that you do not define God Himself to be an antinomianist -- you should look up antinomianism. If God is perfect love it is because He is patient, kind, just, holy, infinite, pure, almighty, exalted, condescending, Lord of Hosts, the Good Shepherd, etc., and all of these at the same time harmoniously -- never diminishing in one aspect (ie. justice) to extend another (ie. mercy) -- throughout eternity.

Quote:
God has made the creation and there is still good in it. And so good can be found in the creation apart from a specific being born again and anointed since the creation already has good in it. Note I am not saying totally apart from the Holy Spirit since He is God who was responsible for the creation of the world.


This is a big difference between something being "good" because God made it, including man, and the fact that there is no good thing in man himself. You do dangerously confuse these matters.

Quote:
I think if I am right a lot of the things you are saying are not well. You are saying that all normal things we do like eating are sinful. You are saying that we are to only love the born again image of Christ in our children therefore we are not to love our children if they are unsaved. I think that a lot of your posts have been written from you sinful flesh.


And you are [b]not[/b] right. All "normal" things we do like eating are sinful because, apart from the Spirit, we do everything as haters of God and lovers of self. The carnal heart is depraved and unclean and, out of that abundance of vile wickedness, man "loves" and "hates" at his own discretion to his own shame and condemnation and to the grief of a Holy God.
If you truly loved your children (or anyone, stranger or otherwise) you would have no contentment, no satisfaction, no comfort for them if the the fruits of the Spirit of Christ were not daily present in their lives; this is the hatred I speak of -- for the very reason that all who are not born again of the Spirit are already condemned by God, abiding under His wrath, reserved unto everlasting fire; not but a vapor's breath away from being cast into outer darkness and a remediless torment. Love in our post-modern, relativistic day has taken on a vulgar form of "tolerance", while divine hatred has become misplaced as though it were an attribute of the devil. If you truly loved someone you would hate them for selling themselves as slaves unto unrighteousness and all manner of uncleanness -- [b]again! not maliciously![/b] I don't know how strongly I can emphasize this -- as Paul wrote in rebuke to the Corinthians: "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, [u][b]so that[/b][/u] his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." You will notice throughout the OT, God manifesting the same sentiment ([b]Proverbs 1:23[/b]). You see, even the very wrath of God is for our good, as our Lord Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." And again, "His mercy is upon generation after generation toward those who fear Him." And again, "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" and to depart from evil and hate every wicked way is understanding; as well as leading to knowledge of the Holy One, which is eternal life.
None-the-less, the Father has fixed a day and reserved it for judgment; wherefore, at that time the [b]benevolant wrath and love[/b] of God shall no longer be of any benefit to them who are cast away, but shall be themselves (His just wrath and holy love) the very fire that devours them. Some might consider this a strange doctrine that the very Love of God shall be the devouring flame that shall torment the miserable souls who partake in the second death because they have little or no comprehension of the holiness of God. As I have said several times in this post -- the perfect love of God is both just and merciful -- such that even God's mercy is a just-mercy. For this reason judgment shall be merciless upon the ungodly because God's mercy cannot put aside or abolish His justice. Just as our Savior did not come to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill them; so that through His perfect obedience to our Heavenly Father we might receive mercy through His justice, as a propitiation for our sins.




Quote:
I would like to suggest again that the exhortation in Corinthians is given to us that we might know how the love of God should be expressed among us and not rather to suggest to us if it was nescessary or not for there to be a mulitplicity of persons in God in order that He Himself should be love.


Brother ChrisJD, what if I recommended you to consider how the Trinity expresses love among themselves -- the perfect representation and fulfillment of loving one another; a perfect parable for how we, as the body of Christ, should be one. Does this answer your exhortation?

[edit: [b]John 17
21.[/b] that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
[b]22.[/b] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[b]23.[/b] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.]


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/7 0:18Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:does not seek its own

Hi Again boG,





"Brother ChrisJD, what if I recommended you to consider how the Trinity expresses love among themselves -- the perfect representation and fulfillment of loving one another; a perfect parable for how we, as the body of Christ, should be one. Does this answer your exhortation?

[edit: John 17
21. that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.]"




[i]...what if I recommended you to consider how the Trinity expresses love among themselves[/i]




I do not, for myself, think it is very easy to take the prayers of the man Christ Jesus(1Ti 2:5, [i]EDIT I do not mean to say that He is not also God, as in 1Jn 5:20[/i]), the mediatior between God and men, and make a doctrine out of them of the nescessity of there being multiple persons in God in eternity in order that He be love.




Love does not seek [b]it's own[/b].


The Lord Jesus in the same prayer said




[b][color=660000]I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. [/color][/b]

- John 17:9-10(KJV)




[i]Edited to correct errors in spelling[/i]


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/12/7 13:40Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Bog,

The Bible teaches that God desires to glorify Himself. Therefore God desire to love Himself. Do you deny that God desires to glorify Himself? If so then how do you deal with the verse I provided you? I am not saying that God only "deserves" to be glorified but God "desires" to be glorified. According to your reasoning then because God desires to glorify Himself then He is not loving and being selfish. I however would state that He is being selfish and loving as I have already explained. Please do not answer with a question but answer with a direct answer dealing specifically with what I have put forth. I do not believe that I have answer you merely with questions but with direct answers.


I cannot say that I have a load of clarity on the doctrine of depravity. I can say what I say though. And that is that unsaved man can do good in that they can love their children or work for the government as a police officer doing God's bidding. To say that we are not to love our children is a zealous erroneous polarization of scripture.

Quote:
If I should say that "God loves Himself" (and He does)


I am a bit wondering now. I thought you said that God does not love Himself because He does not seek His own because He is love and love does not seek His own. But now you are saying God loves Himself? Which is it? I believe you are contradicting yourself...

 2008/12/7 21:23Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Quote:
Love does not seek it's own.

The Lord Jesus in the same prayer said

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

- John 17:9-10(KJV)


You have just proven my point Chris. You make God dependant upon man in order to love perfectly.

Quote:
"If I should say that 'God loves Himself' (and He does)"

I am a bit wondering now. I thought you said that God does not love Himself because He does not seek His own because He is love and love does not seek His own. But now you are saying God loves Himself? Which is it? I believe you are contradicting yourself...


You scare me David, you really do.

[b]This is how I describe God loving and glorifying Himself[/b]:
The Trinity is a beautiful balance of perfect individuality and perfect unity in harmony -- the Godhead being the perfect representation of divine love.
God the Father does not seek His own but loves the Son and the Holy Spirit and seeks to exalt (glorify) them;
God the Son does not seek His own but loves the Father and the Holy Spirit and seeks to exalt (glorify) them;
God the Holy Spirit does not seek His own but loves the Father and the Son and seeks to exalt (glorify) them.
This is a relational emphasis which your Oneness doctrine cannot touch.

Quote:
I however would state that He is being selfish and loving as I have already explained.


Show me the verse which says God is selfish or that selfishness is an attribute of perfect love. Verses which declare that God will glorify Himself do not prove or even suggest that He is selfish. What a strange doctrine that Love is selfish. But, you shall probably tell me again, "only God can be selfish because He is love", right? If God, who is Love, is selfish then He by example of His own nature establishes the commandment for how men shall love; that is, by also being selfish. If perfect Love is selfish then the love of God shed abroad in our hearts will by nature also be a selfish-love. You do corrupt the goodness of God.

Quote:
I cannot say that I have a load of clarity on the doctrine of depravity. I can say what I say though. And that is that unsaved man can do good in that they can love their children or work for the government as a police officer doing God's bidding. To say that we are not to love our children is a zealous erroneous polarization of scripture.


Indeed, you are ignorant about the depravity of man. Have you understood nothing I have written? Have you understood nothing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

1) "unsaved man can do good"
[b]Romans 3
12.[/b] ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; [b]THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD[/b], THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2) "unsaved man ... can love"
[b]2 John 1
6.[/b] And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments [that we love one another].

I ask you sir, can an unsaved man obey the commandments of Christ Jesus? do I need to repeat [b]Romans 3:12[/b] again? How about I quote this verse instead,

[b]Romans 8
7.[/b] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[b]8.[/b] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The unregenerate sinner will not, can not, is not able to obey the law of Christ. And the law of Christ is to love one another -- the depraved man therefore cannot love.

David, you have settled me in this matter. You do not have a right view of the divine love or the divine wrath of God. You do not have a right view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin nor of man's depravity and condemnation. And likewise this leaves me with little wonder why you should have no confidence and no affection for the revelation of the Godhead as Trinity.

I am more than willing to take the time to instruct you in doctrine but no longer on this thread. If we shall continue this conversation I should only desire to do so on an instant-chat service because this way isn't benefitting you as I hoped it would. As I said way back in the beginning David, you are stuck in your pride. You thought this was an attack on your character. Indeed it was; however, not for the sake of slandering but for this reason: pride in its most basic definition makes us unable to discern what causes us to stumble. And indeed my brother you are stumbling.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/8 2:13Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Bog,

Selfish in a righteous sense. Since God desires to glorify Himself He is being selfish in a righteous sense. And since God desires to glorify Himself He also desires to love Himself. You still have not answered the question that I gave you directly nor responded to the verse I quoted directly. This is the 3rd time that I posted them and each time you did not directly answer them.

You also did not respond when I asked you about about Your teaching that God loves Himself since earlier you said He didn't.

And I also think you are teaching that we are not to love our children if they are not saved in an extreme polarization of interpreting scripture.

I agree to disagree with you and also do not think that it would be beneficial to continue in this conversation at this point.

 2008/12/9 19:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Selfish in a righteous sense.


You need to find another word. Sin cannot have a 'righteous sense'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/12/10 8:25Profile





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