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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2758
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Hello Inthelight, I have touched on this issue a couple times. I have read the passage you provided and here is what I have to say. Francis and C.S. were mainly philosopher's. In my original post I talked of how I received the teaching of eternal relation of the 3 person from all eternity for companionship. Much of the reason my school taught this and others was because of the comments by Lewis and probably Francis as well. I am not downing Philosophy but a lot of the time it is empty with good sounding words or extra biblical. How can God be personal if He did not have a couple of friends to talk to from all eternity? Well I am not saying that God does not relate with Himself. The Word is the expression of Him. The Spirit searches Him. And He Himself is love itself and love can be satisfied within in itself without having multiple personalities. A man needs to love and be loved but God is love itself. God does love Himself for to love love is to love but not in the sense of talking to Himself and ect in 3 persons because the Bible does not teach 3 personalities. This philosophy was produced in order to prove to skeptics that the Triunity is true. Saying God is Triune if He werent He would be lonely this was their apologetic. God is Triune if He werent He couldnt be personal they say. I am not saying He is not Triune only that He does not have 3 seperate personalities but one with 3 functions, expressions, parts. God is still relational with Himself as love. We cannot hang out with ourselves because we were created or love but God is uncreated as love.



Sorry I haven't been able to get back to this for a couple of days but I would like to address your reply to my question.

It is true that there is much empty philosophy out there however, we should not abandon philosophy. Just as every parent would be disappointed if their child never asked "why?", so God must be concerned when men attempt to stifle the built-in philosophical urge which He has put in each of us. Take the philosopher out of man and he ceases to be the one God created. In other words, destroy his sense of destiny and purpose and he soon becomes nothing more than a beast.

Therefore what is needed is a God centered philosophy in which we see life steadily and as a whole. Adequate universals are needed and the Christian has such universals including what we know about the Trinity. The Christian philosophy was not invented, as you suggest, as an apologetic to defend the Trinity, it is simply the only real answer to the question of man's destiny and purpose which can consistently be lived by.

For example, in your philosophy the existance of love as we know it in our makeup can only have its origin in chance. But the Christian philosophy of the existance of love in the makeup of man has its origin in that which has always been - love between the persons of the Trinity from before the foundation of the world.

I can know something truly of what it means when the Bible tells me that God the Father loves God the Son. When I see a young couple together obviously showing love I don't know all that they feel for one another and yet I too love my wife and so I don't look at them as an animal would look at them without understanding. It's not exhaustive understanding but it is true understanding. And when I talk about love existing between God the Father and God the Son I'm not just talking nonsense. Though I am only scratching the surface of love in the Godhead, yet the word love has real meaning for me, meaning that I can consistently live by.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2008/11/20 19:10Profile









 Re:

Philogos said: "Please do not patronize those who view things differently from yourself. If you have some thoughts share them and lets examine them together."

My brother, I was not even thinking of patronizing anyone I can assure you. It doesn't matter to me how anyone views the godhead, I respect their views. I too am only sharing and examining. I was only pointing out the aspects of "traditions" and how deeply entrenched they can be. If I have offended you or anyone, please forgive me. As a token of my sincerity I'll refrain from adding more to this thread. :-(

 2008/11/20 19:15
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Bog,

All I have done is state simply what I believe in 4 to 5 sentences. Then you asked me a whole bunch of questions and made a whole bunch of statements and so I replied to them. I have not tried to write confusingly. I think much of the confusion is based on you not understanding what I am saying. Your earlier posts had accusations in them of my character and doctrine, it had quotes from men, it had philosophies, and other things. So I had to respond to all this. I have not written anything confusing. Here is what I have written in short multiple times:

[b]God, the Spirit, and the Logos are all the same.

The Spirit is the same because the Spirit is God's spirit and God is spirit so there is no difference. The only difference is that the Spirit goes out into the world and searches the deep things of God while God sits on the throne. God on the throne has taken on form since spirit can do this. These are the only differences.

The Logos is the glory of God, the express image of His person, the word of God. Your word and such does not carry another personality the same goes with your spirit.

God is the Spirit and the Logos. The Lord is the Spirit as it says in Corinthians. And the Logos in human form said I and my Father are one if you have seen me you have seen the Father.[/b]

Now what is it that you disagree with me on? Please do not reference men or philosophy or make accusations just give me Scripture in simplicity. When you question my doctrine it is mainly in these things like how can this make sense and that and then I have to correct you and explain it and show you what I really mean. I am not sure you are taking the time to understand what I am saying. As an exhortation the Scriptures say he who is slow to anger is great in understanding so before you go and call me things at least give me a chance to answer your questions. So far I have answered your question. I will once again try to. If I leave something out please systematically point out the things that you disagree with me on so that I can respond to them.

The only thing I can think of now is the philosophy that God cant exist without multiple persons because He can neither show love to another nor relate and so cant be loving or relational. I have already stated that God can love Himself and is sufficient in that. Have you never heard of God centered theology? Why do you act like this is a big thing? Many Christians even here on this forum understand this concept. The Christian world has lost the center of Christianity and that is God. God is the sun in which all things orbit around. As I said all things are through Him and to Him and for Him. Do you not believe that God desires to glorify Himself? So why is it so hard to believe that God wants to love Himself? This is simple and sure doctrine that the mass of Christians hold to. Go ahead and check out desiringgod.com by John Piper on the front page you will see an article called God loves Himself. If you do not understand God centered theology then you are missing the most central and main teaching in Christian doctrine. If God is not the center then who is. Once again I want to promote edification and progressive debate so please systematically let me know what you disagree with so we can have a clear and reasonable discussion on this.

 2008/11/20 19:19Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Inthelight,

Quote:
It is true that there is much empty philosophy out there however, we should not abandon philosophy.


I am not saying to completely and I know its importance. It is just that in this specific situation you can go in circles with it so I try to stick with what is main.


Quote:
The Christian philosophy was not invented, as you suggest, as an apologetic to defend the Trinity


I am not saying that it is the sole motive but it is one big reason for it.


Quote:
I can know something truly of what it means when the Bible tells me that God the Father loves God the Son.


The Son has not always been. The Logos existed eternally and when He took on flesh He was named Jesus the Son of God.


Quote:
For example, in your philosophy the existance of love as we know it in our makeup can only have its origin in chance. But the Christian philosophy of the existance of love in the makeup of man has its origin in that which has always been - love between the persons of the Trinity from before the foundation of the world.


I dont know what you mean by chance. I think though that the main thing you are pointing out other then the small side issues is the fellowship between the Triunity. Gods word and spirit do not have different personalities just as your word and spirit do not have different personalities then you. God can have love without having 2 other personalities to give it to because He can love Himself:


[b]God, the Spirit, and the Logos are all the same.

The Spirit is the same because the Spirit is God's spirit and God is spirit so there is no difference. The only difference is that the Spirit goes out into the world and searches the deep things of God while God sits on the throne. God on the throne has taken on form since spirit can do this. These are the only differences.

The Logos is the glory of God, the express image of His person, the word of God. Your word and such does not carry another personality the same goes with your spirit.

God is the Spirit and the Logos. The Lord is the Spirit as it says in Corinthians. And the Logos in human form said I and my Father are one if you have seen me you have seen the Father.[/b]

 2008/11/20 19:29Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Deepthinker,

Quote:
I was only pointing out the aspects of "traditions" and how deeply entrenched they can be. If I have offended you or anyone, please forgive me. As a token of my sincerity I'll refrain from adding more to this thread.


I don't think you have to do that. I don't think you said anything wrong in your post it was truth and was edifying. He may have taken it personally because of the context of the posting but it wasn't so you have no fault. Do not be discouraged from expressing yourself especially when it is sound as it has been. Try not to take it personal as it is just often a result of debate on important matters.

 2008/11/20 19:32Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

[b][color=FF0000]2 questions to everyone in general:[/color][/b]

The 2 things that I mainly believe differently about the Triunity are this. One, I do not believe that God has 3 multiple personalities. Two, I do not believe that the Logos has always been the Son.

[b]Can anyone prove that the Logos was eternally the Son?[/b] Because no one has and it seems after my initial responses no one has tried and I suspect and believe it is because no one can. The topics of the person has been brought up though and on that I will also question.

[b]Does you word and spirit have a different personality?[/b]I believe the answer is no but I still want you to answer. So why do you say that God's word and spirit have distinct personalities and therefore claim that God has 3 different personalities. If He did then you would have 3 personalities.

 2008/11/20 19:38Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2758
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Can anyone prove that the Logos was eternally the Son?



How ironic that you would ask for facts when your theology gives no basis for verifiable facts and knowing. In your view a word such as love can have no meaning or value beyond your own limited realm.

You said that you didn't understand what I meant by "chance" in my last post. How can your understanding of love be anything but a product of chance if it doesn't have its fulfillment in what has always been? How can love have validity and meaning without the reality of that love always existing between the Father and Son in the Trinity?

The Father loved the Son from before creation. God also loves us and we are to love God. The word and act of love have crossed into mankind. Finally I am commanded by God to love my wife, children, and neighbors, here on earth. Together these facts give true meaningfulness and value to me when I say that I love.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2008/11/20 20:15Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Inthelight,

Quote:
How ironic that you would ask for facts when your theology gives no basis for verifiable facts and knowing. In your view a word such as love can have no meaning or value beyond your own limited realm.


I have provided scripture, reasons, over and over throughout all these posts. I have done my best to answer every question straightforward. I dont understand how you can say this. Am I not allowed to ask questions? I have asked hardly any at all these are basically the only ones throughout all of the postings. For the most part I was the one being questioned and I did all I could to answer every specific question. I think the way you talk to me is wrong. I am not posting here in animosity but for reason.


Quote:
You said that you didn't understand what I meant by "chance" in my last post. How can your understanding of love be anything but a product of chance if it doesn't have its fulfillment in what has always been? How can love have validity and meaning without the reality of that love always existing between the Father and Son in the Trinity?


I said God loves Himself therefore this love is founded in God which has always been so I dont see where chance comes into this. For love to be it does not have to exist between 2 persons it is exists in God who is love itself and who loves Himself from all eternity past.

This is not meant with any attitude but you have not answered my question. You only make more personal accusations and statements that I have already replied to. This is usually what people do when they feel insecure and threatened they respond not with reason but defensively. Please as I have asked just a minute ago reason with me. If there is something that you dont agree with list it one by one and I will try to ask you clearly without a smorgasborg of things going on. And please answer my questions and dont answers a question with another question.

 2008/11/20 20:29Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Bro. David,

I have read a lot in this thread. You seem to have a lot of wisdom from the Lord and to be very candid in your writings. I believe you are sincere. I may be wrong but I believe you have come to this area of understanding because of your desire for the glory of God. I think you have a problem with saying trinity because it is not in the bible and because it makes it seem like God is 3 Gods in unity, when the scriptures make it clear that God is one and that there is none else. There are several verses besides Isaiah 45:22 (KJV) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else…that clearly talk about the honor of one God.

I have also experience things that I have had a problem with like worshipping the trinity when the word is not even in the bible and is not fully explain neither in the bible nor by those who believe in it. There are different views of the trinity and the one that makes God be three God’s in unity with one another I disagree with and I also believe most on SI would also disagree with this view. The trinity to most is the best way man has come up with explaining the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We Christians all must believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God. There are so many scriptures that prove that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. I think in order to be a true Christian we all must believe this.

Here is something I have discovered concerning the Godhead and this became more real to me after I experience an infilling of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. There is an order in the Godhead. The Father is God and is first. The Son came from the Father, being God from Him, and is second. The Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son, being God from the Father, and is third. I will stop for now because I won’t to see what you agree with so far.

(PS. I have written what I have written in all honesty of the things I have experienced and have had problems with, so please; don’t jump in on me over what I have stated here because I do want to see where David is coming from if He doesn’t mind answering me.)

Blessings to all!

 2008/11/20 22:09Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Hm, I wonder if you are prepared to listen and consider now. I have been asking questions and criticizing based specifically on what you have written. You seem to think these are exaggerated questions that I am making up, which is why I am left with the impression that you are either not thinking or not listening.

Whatever the case, I will attempt to answer your points one by one as clearly as possible.

Quote:
God, the Spirit, and the Logos are all the same.


The Bible specifically mentions Father, Son, and Spirit with exact references and distinct manifestations. If they were all the same this distinctness would only be confusing and repulsive, especially to the God-fearing Jew who reverently recites the Shema. If the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are One and the Same without difference then why all the confusion of different manifestations?

Why the Son being baptized, and the Father's voice speaking from heaven, and the Spirit descending in bodily form as a dove? Why the Son taking His blood and offering it up through the Holy Spirit unto the Father? You say you don't believe the Father died on the cross, yet, you say there is no difference between the Father and the Son or the Spirit. You contradict yourself continuously on this point.

You say you don't believe in a God of multiple personalities, ok fine. How interesting that the Son prays to the Father to send another Comforter (the Spirit). Was Jesus of Nazaresth different from the Father and Spirit while He was walking as a man on the earth? Or is it true that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and for ever? Perhaps He may have been in a bodily vessel, so prepared by the Father by the Holy Spirit coming upon a virgin woman, but Jesus did not change. Thus, to be consistent, if we say even while Jesus was a man He was still the same as the Father and the Spirit, as you said yourself, "if you have seen me (Jesus) you have seen the Father". However, did you likewise notice when Jesus said, "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father." So, what does Jesus really mean when He says, "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him"? Listen to this, "And He (Jesus) is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power." What does this mean? Let us look to Hebrews the great revelation of Jesus our High Priest.

[b]Hebrews 1:8-9[/b]
But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

Hm, the Son is God and He loves and hates and is compared to his companions, etc. These are personality traits. I wonder, do you think Jesus of Nazareth had a personality of His own as distinguished from the Father and the Spirit? Or do you believe Jesus, the Son, was also the Father and the Spirit in bodily flesh? We do read that in him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. However, Jesus said, "not my will but Thy will be done." Did Jesus distinguish His own will from the Father's will?

"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, this is a personality trait. Also Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit. A force, or energy, or non-personal essence cannot be lied to.

Do I need to mention anything concerning the Father's display of personality? I believe these brief verses should be enough to make this point: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all display personality traits.


Quote:
The Spirit is the same because the Spirit is God's spirit and God is spirit so there is no difference. The only difference is that the Spirit goes out into the world and searches the deep things of God while God sits on the throne. God on the throne has taken on form since spirit can do this. These are the only differences.


Then does this mean that the "deep things of God" are out in the world? These are the only differences? Here is a question: is the Spirit
1) the Father's Spirit ([b]Matthew 10:20[/b])
2) the Spirit of Christ Jesus ([b]Galatians 4:6; Philippians 1:19[/b]) or,
3) the Holy Spirit ([b]John 14:26; Acts 2:33[/b])?


Quote:
The Logos is the glory of God, the express image of His person, the word of God. Your word and such does not carry another personality the same goes with your spirit.


This is foolish. We are created in the image and likeness of God; not an exact copy. Just because our finite human words or our spirits do not have different personalities is no bases for claiming that God does not. In the beginning was the Word (eternal), the Word was with God (distinct), and the Word was God (Deity). This divine Word is not even comparable to some mere human expression but the Word is the fulness of Deity -- both with God and is God.


Quote:
God is the Spirit and the Logos. The Lord is the Spirit as it says in Corinthians. And the Logos in human form said I and my Father are one if you have seen me you have seen the Father.


Jesus also said, "Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are." Does this mean Jesus is going to make us humans One and the Same as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Shall we become part of the "triunity" ... or shall we say "quad-unity"? Or does every single person count as an individual addition to this unity (ie. 10 billion-unity)?


Quote:
The 2 things that I mainly believe differently about the Triunity are this. One, I do not believe that God has 3 multiple personalities.


Ok, you say there is only One-Personality. Yet, this One-Person speaks to Himself through 3 different expressions. This is quite unnecessary and confusing if they are all the Same-Person without distinction. And as I previously mentioned, Jesus distinguished His own will from the Father's will. If we take this a step further and compare this to [b]John 5[/b] when Jesus says, "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek [b]My own will[/b], but the will of Him who sent Me." If we take this to be true then even Jesus stating a difference between His own will and the Father's will is also by the initiative of the Father.

This is also of great consideration: Jesus said, "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

"... for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do (this is the witness of the Holy Spirit as declared in the reading of [b]Isaiah 61[/b] from [b]Luke 4[/b]) --testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

Here we have Jesus Himself, the Spirit, and the Father each counted as different testifiers concerning the testimony of Jesus. If we believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the Same without distinction then these are false testimonies; for then there is truly only One-Person who testifies with three different expressions and that just doesn't fly. As Jesus said, "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true." If you would like to say this another way: God testified concerning Himself, God bore witness with signs and wonders, and God testified of God. That adds up to how many testifiers? Lets count ... God, that makes One; thus if this is what we believe then the testimony is not true.


Quote:
Two, I do not believe that the Logos has always been the Son.


Why not? What does it mean to be "the Son"? Do you also believe the Father has not always been "the Father"? Is not "Abba, Father" an expression used by Jesus, the Son? Is this not a NT revelation of the relationship between the eternal Word and God? You should know that referring to God as our Heavenly Father is not OT. What a strange thing to consider ... that the One and Same God may be both the Father and the Son of Himself ... If this is true then what does Father and Son even mean? Surely it cannot be a relational question because how can one relate to himself in this way if the Son and the Father are, as you said, the same?


Quote:
Can anyone prove that the Logos was eternally the Son? Because no one has and it seems after my initial responses no one has tried and I suspect and believe it is because no one can. The topics of the person has been brought up though and on that I will also question.


Jesus is referred to as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." And again, "Jesus Christ is also the same yesterday, today, and for ever". Truly there is a dispensational revelation to the world, a distinct difference in the way we humans relate to God, but what thing has changed in the Godhead? Nothing. The immutable God, divine, perfect, without change or deviation. So, you tell me, when did God change, that is, when was He not the Eternal Son?


Quote:
Does you word and spirit have a different personality? I believe the answer is no but I still want you to answer.


As I already said, this is foolish to compare the creature to the Creator as though we were the exact representation of His nature.


Quote:
So why do you say that God's word and spirit have distinct personalities and therefore claim that God has 3 different personalities. If He did then you would have 3 personalities.


Because the Son is described has having characteristics of a personality, as does the Spirit, and the Father. Likewise, these three interact One with the Others. It is in such a manner and such a fashion that if it were not for the Shema (the Lord our God is One) we might be led to believe that there were indeed three Gods. If you have truly extensively studied the Trinity you would be familiar with the varied verses that relate these things. That is the reason I have not been forthcoming with many scriptures; why should I give you more scriptures which you have already extensively read and yet still come to your "slightly differing" view & understanding? Would it change your mind if I repeat those scriptures you say you have already studied?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/21 4:06Profile





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