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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

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davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Logic,

Quote:
glorified flesh


I don't know if I would say glorified [b]flesh[/b]. Jesus did not have glorified flesh until after He was resurrected. Now to explain the Theophanies. I would say that spirit can take on form. The angels could look as men and eat. The Spirit could take on the form of a dove and so forth. So I would say as spirit He took on form since spirit can transform from my limited understanding of what spirit is.

 2008/11/20 9:22Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Bog,

Quote:
Davidt, I have already presented you with criticisms, it was the very first reply to your post. It is reasonable and sound and is based from Scripture.


The C.S. Lewis type philosophy does not stand. God does not need people to keep Him company. God does not need company in order to be loving. He as love is sufficient within Himself even alone. The "One" can be alone.


Quote:
I also gave you several links, including St Augustine "On the Trinity", Jonathan Edwards "Unpublished Essays on the Trinity", A.W. Tozer "The Holy Trinity", etc. Indeed it was a scholarly reply with substantial information.


I have already studied the Triunity extensively. Not that I am not open to learning but I am just not at this point wanting to read long discourses. If you have something to say I would rather you be specific so I dont have to read a sea of general information.


Quote:
This is very simple. You are trying to define God, with what appears to be a proper description of His divinity, but you continue to keep trying to fit Him into a weak and irrational model.


I am not trying to fit Him into anything. I am only deriving from Scripture what He is.


Quote:
And He Himself is love itself and love can be satisfied within in itself without having multiple personalities.

If this is true, then listen: The Father has no center of consciousness (Person) of His own, the Son has no center of consciousness , the Spirit has no center of consciousness. Therefore, what you are saying is like this,


No because love is a person not a thing namely God.


Quote:
how does God's love fulfill "love does not seek its own".


This is in context to loving you sinful nature. Or the kind of self love that neglects others. But when God loves Himself in that He loves others for when He loves Himself He loves love and therefore will love others since love loves others. For God to love Himself is different then man loving themselves. This was explained earlier. When Satan loved himself it was out of place because God is first. But because God is rightfully first He can love Himself first. This is a widely accepted truth. This is God centered theology taught by Edwards, Piper, the Bible and so forth.


Quote:
God is still relational with Himself as love. We cannot hang out with ourselves because we were created or love but God is uncreated as love.

Ah, that explains everything, so, which scripture revealed this to you?


Well, we were made for God and God is love as it says in 1 John.

 2008/11/20 9:35Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Ben,

Quote:
the Word


The Word was and is and always will be. The Word however took on the form of man and in that humanity is called Jesus the Christ the Son.


Quote:
I don't think trying to imagine what it is like to be God and talking about personalities has been very fruitful.


To some degree you are right it has not been too fruitful. I have tried to straighten up the conversation so that we are getting somewhere. I was not trying to get so in depth but I was challenged to explained specifics and enter the philosophic realm which can be deep long and specific like math since one rational thought links to another. I had previously not gone that deep I had merely begun with Scripture and accepted it and had not chased down every thought as far as on this post so some of what I was saying was in alpha form and not beta.


Quote:
You were talking about God loving himself and ideas about what God does and doesn't do "with" or "to" or "for" himself have been popping up throughout but I can't think of any scripture that encourages us to attempt to fathom the trinity through such ideas, phrases, etc. Ben


Once again refer to the previous thing I just said. But in regard to God loving Himself it is Scripture. This is supreme! The end of all things is not the salvation of man the end of all things is the glory of God and this leads to the salvation of man which is secondary though very important. God is passionate about His glory and therefore is passionate about loving Himself. Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and [b]to[/b] him are [b]all[/b] things. To him be [b]glory[/b] forever. Amen.

 2008/11/20 9:47Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Phil,

Quote:
I am still awaiting an answer to my questions regarding the Philippian passage in my post of "philologos on 2008/11/19 17:25:57"


I have now answered.

 2008/11/20 9:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
davidt on 2008/11/20 14:09:01
It does not say "being in the form of the 2nd person of the Trinity" it says being in the form of God.


What is that supposed to mean? It is speaking of the One who was 'equal' with God. Is your leg 'equal' to you? To 'be in the form of God' is plainly distinguishing between two individuals. If not it is a tautology. It would merely be saying that 'God was in the form of God'.

The point Paul is making is that the one that we know as Christ Jesus was distinctively 'equal' with God. He was in the 'form of God'; later he took the 'form of a slave'.

Quote:
The Word and God are no different essentially. The word is the glory of God. Gods glory is not another person.


This won't become true just because you keep saying it. The John 1:1 shows that there is a clear 'distinction' between two identities and that we are to see that the identity who was incarnated was both 'with God' and 'was God'. Your 'variation on the Triunity' does justice to the second statement but not the first.

This is the essence of Trinitarian teaching that Christ is both 'with God' and 'is God' and yet these two statements are not tautology.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/11/20 10:00Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Phil,

Quote:
Now,don't go off on the rabbit trail of your legs and arms again. I do not have fellowship with my arms and legs and neither do you.


I have already explained 4 times now that that was only a limited analogy and have then went forth to explain further to a post to Robert recently.


Quote:
fellowship proves persons


Where is there fellowship? The Father has fellowship with the Son in His humanity.

God
does not speak to the Spirit
does not speak to the Logos

Logos
does not speak to God
does not speak to the Spirit

Spirit
does not speak to God
does not speak to the Logos

Son
this is the only exception and that is because of the form as man

Conclusion
The times though when God does speak to Himself it is because of this. God is spirit and so can be 2 places at once and so can talk to himself. He can have 2 mouths.

 2008/11/20 10:01Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Phil,

Quote:
The point Paul is making is that the one that we know as Christ Jesus was distinctively 'equal' with God.


Yes, the reason Paul was trying to show that Jesus was equal with God was to show that He was God and there was no difference. If there was a difference in person then it would be noted but it is not. It is not clearly taught anywhere.


Quote:
The point Paul is making is that the one that we know as Christ Jesus


The reason He uses the word Christ is to denote that the only distinction is His humanity as the Christ not that He is different in His Divinity.


Quote:
This won't become true just because you
keep saying it.


I am aware of that I am not ignorant in my reasoning. I have Scriptures that I am referencing in the back of my mind when I say it. I just did not post them because I already have.


Quote:
This is the essence of Trinitarian teaching that Christ is both 'with God' and 'is God' and yet these two statements are not tautology.


I have already responded to this. God as a spirit can take on multiple and distinct forms but that does not mean He has multiple personalities. As in the throne room vision in Revelation. The Father was on the Throne, the Lamb was in its midst, and the 7 spirits are before the throne. These 3 are separate in form because God as spirit can do that but it does not mean that they have 3 personalities that are different just 3 functions.

 2008/11/20 10:11Profile









 Re: Jesus was speaking from His humanity.

Quote:
Jesus was speaking from His humanity.

I sometimes wonder about this statement. Jesus wasn't a man that we know as man. He didn't come from the ground like man, so Jesus was a different kind of man, a new man as it were, because nothing like this has occurred in history before or after his unique birth from a woman who "knew" no man.

"He came in the "likeness" of sinful flesh." He looked like a man, but was not the same as man who came from the Earth.

I am not saying that Jesus isn't a man, rather that He is a different kind of man born in a unique way coming from a heavenly realm instead of from regular men.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I have many things to share on the godhead but I am very hesitant, I'll read more into this thread to see where it takes me, it may encourage me to share some things, but I do believe so far David from what I have read thus far from the beginning of this thread, they are encouraging. But remember the "trinity" is embedded into peoples minds down through the centuries and it's a subject that is "case sensitive" to those that hold to it's tradition of belief. Traditions are the most difficult especially if they hold no true weight and can be the most difficult to scrape off the hearts of those that hold to it.

When we read in the scriptures about men being "undone", it denotes a stripping down of all that you are and the experience is not a one time event and it doesn't pass away in a moment. It stays with you for many months and perhaps years. But it's the most scariest experiences that I have ever had encountered to be stripped by the LORD and the feeling of being left for dead is overwhelming, until you hear the voice of God breathe life into you saying stand on your feet. "It's not by might, it's not by power, but it's by my Spirit sayeth the LORD". I will teach you by my [holy] Spirit, and I will cause you to walk in them, and not by the traditions of men. Not by what men say about me, but what I say about myself.

 2008/11/20 10:16
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

God, the Spirit, and the Logos are all the same.

The Spirit is the same because the Spirit is God's spirit and God is spirit so there is no difference. The only difference is that the Spirit goes out into the world and searches the deep things of God while God sits on the throne. God on the throne has taken on form since spirit can do this. These are the only differences.

The Logos is the glory of God, the express image of His person, the word of God. Your word and such does not carry another personality the same goes with your spirit.

God is the Spirit and the Logos. The Lord is the Spirit as it says in Corinthians. And the Logos in human form said I and my Father are one if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

 2008/11/20 10:18Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Deep,

I have many things to think of concerning the nature of Jesus as well. I like a few of the things you wrote on being stripped and so forth. Good luck with trying to read all that has been posted :). I would just read the first couple of posts and some of my more recent one. Also the disagreements I just dont know how much time I would spend on all the intricacies as somethings have been repeated, misunderstood, and so forth.

 2008/11/20 10:48Profile





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