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davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Phil,

Quote:
It is one of the fundamental expressions of the Godhead in the scripture. If you know of a verse which is more comprehensive please let me know. As regards 'towardsness' the word clearly implies that the relationship is not static but fluid. This is a dynamic relationship and not a spacial one.


Yes I agree. I was just wondering what you were trying to say. What you wrote was difficult to understand. I will agree to disagree with you on the whole towardness thing. It could mean that but to me it seems a bit vague. I just want to stick to what is clear.

 2008/11/19 12:39Profile









 Re: humanity/divinity

Hi David,
I see you're juggling a few conversations here still. I tried to skim over a lot of what I missed. Are there any hard feelings from yesterday? I hoped that I had addressed any offense I caused. - Ben


Who died on the cross for you?

 2008/11/19 12:39
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
davidt on 2008/11/19 17:39:04
I just want to stick to what is clear.


The Greek is diamond-like in its clarity with these facets plainly visible.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/11/19 12:43Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Wordsworth]Christopher Wordsworth[/url], has this comment

[color=009900]o logos En pros ton theon - The Word was with God. He says 'pros' not 'en', [i]with[/i] God, not [i]in[/i]; showing the Word's Eternity, and that the Son was not circumscribed by any limits of space; and that He was without time, but never without God. Hence we may refute Sabellius, who said that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are merely one Person, who showed himself in various modes; for the Evangelist clearly distinguishes between the Person of God the Father and the Person of God the Son.[/color]


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Ron Bailey

 2008/11/19 12:58Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

The word "God" is actually a simplified way of saying "Godhead".
When you here the word "God" think of the Godhead.
God is 1x1x1=1
Not
1+1+1=1

In order to understand how Jesus is the "Son of the Father", we need to define the word "son" as it relates to the Father & Son in the Godhead.
Son:
The Son is to uphold the Father's name, image & character.

The Son is who follows in the "footsteps of the Father?"

The Son is to do the work & say the Word(s) of the Father.

The Son is to represent the Father.

All of the Trinity has the same mind, purpose, attitude and goal; they are one (as unified).
However, each of them may have different thoughts (without departing from the unified mind)

Before Jesus was incarnate, all we have to go by is how Jesus is now, after the resurrection & how He was in the Old Testament.
Before Jesus was incarnate, He had glorified flesh.
Jesus may bee seen in several ways before and after the resurrection.

He may be seen as an Angel who would be indiscernible from another men, as He was on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24
I would assume that this is the form He came as in the Old Testament.

Jesus may be seen as John saw Him in Revelation 1:14-16

Jesus may bee seen as He was seen in Matthew 17:2 on the Mount of Transfiguration.

 2008/11/19 13:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Logic on 2008/11/19 18:03:39

Before Jesus was incarnate, He had glorified flesh.


what!?!
the scripture says very specifically that the 'Word [i]became[/i] flesh'. This is a distinct event not part of Christ's pre-incarnation character.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/11/19 13:07Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
philologos wrote:
Quote:
Logic on 2008/11/19 18:03:39

Before Jesus was incarnate, He had glorified flesh.

what!?!
the scripture says very specifically that the 'Word [i]became[/i] flesh'. This is a distinct event not part of Christ's pre-incarnation character.

The 'Word became flesh' as we have it.
What do you think His form was when He was walking in the garden in the cool of the day(Gen 3:8)?

visited Abraham with the two other angels(Gen 18:1)?

When He wrestled with Jacob(Gen 32:24-)?

With the three men in the furnace of Daniel(Dan 3:25)?

When all the times when He appeared as an "Angel of the LORD" in the Old testament?

Were all these instances [b]not[/b] glorified flesh?
Why or how would it be any different than these instances? John 20:19,26, John 21:4
Or Luke 24:36?

Was Jesus in the form of something else instead of glorified flesh in the old testament in the Scriptures I presented?
If not, then what?

 2008/11/19 13:47Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Quote:
what!?!
the scripture says very specifically that the 'Word became flesh'. This is a distinct event not part of Christ's pre-incarnation character.


This is a good point, Christ had not been born of a virgin before. But He did had some kind of flesh or spiritual body becaue He did eat with Abraham.


Davidt, I have already presented you with criticisms, it was the very first reply to your post. It is reasonable and sound and is based from Scripture. I also gave you several links, including St Augustine "On the Trinity", Jonathan Edwards "Unpublished Essays on the Trinity", A.W. Tozer "The Holy Trinity", etc. Indeed it was a scholarly reply with substantial information.


Quote:
How can God be personal if He did not have a couple of friends to talk to from all eternity? Well I am not saying that God does not relate with Himself. The Word is the expression of Him. The Spirit searches Him. And He Himself is love itself and love can be satisfied within in itself without having multiple personalities. A man needs to love and be loved but God is love itself. God does love Himself for to love love is to love but not in the sense of talking to Himself and ect in 3 persons because the Bible does not teach 3 personalities. This philosophy was produced in order to prove to skeptics that the Triunity is true. Saying God is Triune if He werent He would be lonely this was their apologetic. God is Triune if He werent He couldnt be personal they say. I am not saying He is not Triune only that He does not have 3 seperate personalities but one with 3 functions, expressions, parts. God is still relational with Himself as love. We cannot hang out with ourselves because we were created or love but God is uncreated as love.



This is very simple. You are trying to define God, with what appears to be a proper description of His divinity, but you continue to keep trying to fit Him into a weak and irrational model.


Quote:
And He Himself is love itself and love can be satisfied within in itself without having multiple personalities.


If this is true, then listen:
The Father has no center of consciousness (Person) of His own, the Son has no center of consciousness , the Spirit has no center of consciousness. Therefore, what you are saying is like this,

head: "I love you arm."
arm: "I love you too, head."

However, the arm and the head had no thoughts or expressions of their own design. They are nothing of themselves. They both spoke from the same center of consciousness. So you might as well say God has 3 mouths whereby one brain speaks with at different times. But it is no different than if He spoke from one and the same mouth each time -- what you have been describing is true schizophrenia. Thus, you are wrongly speaking of multiple personalities because you are describing three persons from one consciousness. The doctrine of the Trinity defines God as having Three distinct Persons -- this is not multiple personalities as one might be schizophrenic; this is multiple personalities as you might find between 3 different family members. However, they each share the same substance and essence of Deity.


Quote:
God does love Himself for to love love is to love but not in the sense of talking to Himself and ect in 3 persons because the Bible does not teach 3 personalities.


Then please, explain to me, if God does not have Three centers of consciousness (Persons) how does God's love fulfill "love does not seek its own". Does this mean that God seeks to love the different parts of Himself? That is absurd. Three Persons defines Three Individuals wherein each Father, Son, and Spirit may unitedly seek the exaltation of the others. What you have defined is impossible to contain perfect love. It is not enough to love Oneself, love must love another individual -- this defines God's love for Himself.

My hands have specific expressions and functions however my hands are nothing without my conscious ability to use them. My hands and feet and expressive abilities, we may even conclude the brain to be the same as my hands and feet (if we believe man's center of consciousness is his soul) then this body is like a puppet's shell. The Father, Son, and Spirit would also be a puppet's shell because none of them are God in and of themselves but rather are expressions of God. Just as my mouth, eyes, hands, feet, voice are not myself but ways in which I function and express myself.


Quote:
This philosophy was produced in order to prove to skeptics that the Triunity is true.


No this philosophy was produced to help define and clarify what the church has consistently and overwhelmingly agreed that the Bible clearly reveals to us. It was produced for the church not for skeptics.


Quote:
Saying God is Triune if He werent He would be lonely this was their apologetic.


And this is true. You are saying that God wasn't lonely because He can talk to Himself through 3 different parts of His same self. Yea, if my body had three different mouths I could pretend to keep myself company too. Unless, I had three different brains to control each mouth. Then I truly would be keeping myself company.


Quote:
God is still relational with Himself as love. We cannot hang out with ourselves because we were created or love but God is uncreated as love.


Ah, that explains everything, so, which scripture revealed this to you?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/19 14:05Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Was Jesus in the form of something else instead of glorified flesh in the old testament in the Scriptures I presented? If not, then what?


Traditionally these have been referred to as 'theophanies'. Theophanies are 'pre-incarnation manifestations of the Word'. Angels do not 'have bodies' but that does not prevent them from 'appearing' and behaving as human. The Word did not 'have flesh' until the Word became flesh.

These revelations/manifestations of God were always of the one we call the Son.

[color=0000FF] “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.” Mic 5:2 NKJV[/color]

These 'goings forth' as this verse makes clear were long before his arrival in 'flesh' in Bethlehem.

The term 'flesh' in this sense really conveys 'humanness'. He did not 'appear' as a man in the incarnation, He 'became' a man. We must keep these differences in mind.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/11/19 15:45Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
philologos wrote:
Quote:
Was Jesus in the form of something else instead of glorified flesh in the old testament in the Scriptures I presented? If not, then what?

Traditionally these have been referred to as 'theophanies'. Theophanies are 'pre-incarnation manifestations of the Word'.

pLEASE define "the Word"
Because, when I think of "the Word",it is not some intangible verbage that God utters, I see "it" as Jesus before He was called Jesus.

Quote:
Angels do not 'have bodies' but that does not prevent them from 'appearing' and behaving as human. The Word did not 'have flesh' until the Word became flesh.

Are you implying that when He ate with Abraham, He didn't have glorified flesh, but something else than when He ate with the disciples after His resurection?

Quote:
The term 'flesh' in this sense really conveys 'humanness'. He did not 'appear' as a man in the incarnation, He 'became' a man. We must keep these differences in mind.

Do you think that jesus a "man" still, now that He is resurrected and in heaven?
Do you think that He still all human & all God or all man & all God?

 2008/11/19 16:50Profile





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