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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

[color=CC0000][b]RED FLAG[/b][/color]

Quote:
boG wrote:

If there is one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that God is NOT the author of sin & evil -- by author I do not mean that God did not create sin & evil, for He has always had knowledge of both good and evil


[b]Gen 3:22[/b] [color=990000]Behold, the man [b]was[/b] as one of Us,[/color] [he is] [color=990000]knowing good and evil now.[/color]
For fear that he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat to live forever,
[b]:23[/b] the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

Even though God knew about evil, He never knew evil.

What is the relevance of James 1:13-17?

[b]James 1:4[/b] [color=990000]Now each one is undergoing trial when he is drawn away and lured by his own desire.[/color]
[b]15.[/b] Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.[/color]

IOW,
But each one is enticed by his own longings/desires, (this is not bad, until the enticing is to sin.) being drawn away (from the right path or away from Christ) by being seduced with them (by the [b]unlawful[/b] things which entices)

(this "being drawn away & seduced" is actually being tempted to go away, not actually leaving yet.)
Then, when longing/desire is conceived (taken hold of the thing desired for selfish reasons without any regard for anyone else), it brings forth sin, and that to death.

Quote:
And yet, do we not find it so fascinating that we are explaining doctrines of God in such a manner that it is a great mystery to us how God could not possibly be the author of sin;

Could you explain this?
Are you actually saying that God is the author of sin?
Or am I misunderstanding your point?
Are you saying that with the verse which you quoted from James, "how could anyone possibly say that God is the author of sin."

 2008/11/22 21:15Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

I enjoy those writings of Spurgeon. What do you think of this?

Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


I realize that God has to give aid for anyone to believe and he can blind a person from believing for his ultimate purpose, but when God was saying, if they remain not still in unbelief, he was saying there was a possibility for them to believe and the responsibility was on them. The problem is with people who think this thing is fixed without any responsibility on man’s part is seemingly ridiculous.

I fear God and will strive to continue in His goodness with humility and faith. I am going to keep trusting in him daily and not in myself and definitely not think I am someone too special to be cutoff, because I’m one of those…no sir, we stand by faith.

The bible is clear that it is unbelief that will cause anybody to be lost forever. The responsibility to believe is on man. The responsibility for regeneration is on God. Notice the fear and humbleness required here in these passages and how we are to stand by faith. Notice also what God said about Israel “if they abide not still in unbelief”, brother let us not get the cart ahead of the horse. Faith comes before regeneration. God does not do away with man’s responsibility to believe for some and make it impossible for others to never be able to believe.

 2008/11/22 23:19Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2055


 Re: Author...Authorship...Authority

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary

AU'THOR, n. [L. auctor. The Latin word is from the root of augeo, to increase, or cause to enlarge. The primary sense is one who brings or causes to come forth.]

1. One who produces, creates, or brings into being; as, God is the author of the Universe.

2. The beginner, former, or first mover of any thing; hence, the efficient cause of a thing. It is appropriately applied to one who composes or writes a book, or original work, and in a more general sense, to one whose occupation is to compose and write books; opposed to compiler or translator.

AU'THOR, v.t. To occasion; to effect.

AU'THORSHIP, n. [author and ship.] The quality or state of being an author.

AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]

1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.

2. The power derived from opinion, respect or esteem; influence of character or office; credit; as the authority of age or example, which is submitted to or respected, in some measure, as a law, or rule of action. That which is claimed in justification or support of opinions and measures.

3. Testimony; witness; or the person who testifies; as, the Gospels or the evangelists are our authorities for the miracles of Christ.

4. Weight of testimony; credibility; as a historian of no authority.

5. Weight of character; respectability; dignity; as a magistrate of great authority in the city.

6. Warrant; order; permission.

By what authority dost thou these things. Mat 21. Acts 9.

7. Precedents, decisions of a court, official declarations, respectable opinions and says, also the books that contain them, are called authorities, as they influence the opinions of others; and in law, the decisions of supreme courts have a binding force upon inferior courts, and are called authorities.

Right it is to acknowledge God as The Author,posessing Authorship,and as being The Authority.

I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me: I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together: I the Lord have created it. Isa. 45:5-8, KJV

Remember the former things of old, For I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure,’ Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Isa. 46:9-11

Yet he is in one minde, & who can turne him? yea, he doeth what his minde desireth. For he will performe that, which is decreed of me, and many such things are with him. Therefore I am troubled at his presence, & in considering it, I am afraid of him. For God hath softened mine heart, & the Almightie hath troubled me. Job 23:13-16(Geneva Bible)

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day. Deut. 2:30

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. 1 Sam. 16:14,15 KJV

As streams of waters, the king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah; He turns it wherever He desires.
Prov. 21:1

Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land—even the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—with drunkenness! And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together," says the LORD. "I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them."’" Jer. 13:13,14

Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lam. 3:38 KJV

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Col. 1:16; Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Col. 2:15

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Rom. 9:22,23

But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable, And He said to them,"To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’" Mark 4:10-12

When he is judged, let him be found guilty. And let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few, and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children continually be vagabonds, and beg; Let them seek their bread also from their desolate places. Let the creditor seize all that he has, And let strangers plunder his labor. Let there be none to extend mercy to him, Nor let there be any to favor his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off, And in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be continually before the LORD, That He may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Ps. 109:7-15

But You, O GOD the Lord, Deal with me for Your name’s sake; Because Your mercy is good, deliver me. Ps. 109:21

Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men. For they speak against You wickedly; Your enemies take Your name in vain. Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. Ps. 139:19-22

Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 2 Thess. 1:6,7

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. Gen. 50:20

Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? Amos 3:6 KJV

It is the philosophy of Plato that God cannot create evil, not the teaching of scripture.

The Platonic assumption that God cannot create evil is one reason why men have come up with alternate systems of doctrine from the Bible.

When God says,"Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it", it is an act of commission(whether through secondary causes or directly)and not of mere permission.

Those who advocate a mere permission on God's part and at the same time attempt to hold to God's absolute sovereignty cannot do so.

Would to God that He'd reveal the incongruousness of such a position. That many would stop trying to defend Him, and as children let the Scriptures themselves answer this theodicy.

He does not hide Himself but Has plainly spoken and shown Himself to "do all these things".

 2008/11/23 0:55Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
I realize that God has to give aid for anyone to believe and he can blind a person from believing for his ultimate purpose, but when God was saying, if they remain not still in unbelief, he was saying there was a possibility for them to believe and the responsibility was on them. The problem is with people who think this thing is fixed without any responsibility on man’s part is seemingly ridiculous.



True and well said. Man is responsible.



Quote:
I fear God and will strive to continue in His goodness with humility and faith. I am going to keep trusting in him daily and not in myself and definitely not think I am someone too special to be cutoff, because I’m one of those…no sir, we stand by faith.




Keep in mind, that the scriptural doctrine of Election has nothing to do with God seeing something special in us. But, it has everything to do with God being the Author and finisher of our Faith.

The Faith that we must stand by, is a hope in His gospel promises. I encourage you that your Faith and hope must be in God's sure and steadfast promises as well as His sure and steadfast warnings. God cannot lie. If your Faith is not steadfast in the promise that God will finish the work He began in you, then your Faith will be little, because you will begin to look to yourself for strength and victory. By the Fear of God we depart from evil. Faith works a love for righteousness and a hatred towards evil. Someone who has Faith that God will never leave them nor forsake them, will also have the Fear of God in their heart. Faith must have hope in the promises of God. Hope in the strength of our will and running capabilities is a Faith that is void of hope. For there is no hope, if Salvation depends upon the will and running of man.

Consider, how do you know that tomorrow you won't wake up hating God? How do you know that a year from now you won't forsake God by utterly denying Him? How do you know that you will remain in Christ if you could utterly fall away and alas end up in hell?

One might answer, "Yes, I have faith and I know that in me there is enough will power and strength to finish the race. Therefore I believe I shall finish well."

Do you not see that, such a man is hoping in himself and his faith is directed to himself rather than the promises of God?

You stand by Faith, and that Faith is a gift of God. Be not high minded. But, fear God. For it is God that holds you up through his gift of Faith. And that Faith is not of yourself.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [Eph 2:8-10]


This a clip from an article,

STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION.

Please confer errors with respective scriptural refutations.

ERROR vs. TRUTH

1. He is not able to perform what He had promised Romans 4:21
2. He will not present me blameless 1 Thessalonians 5:24
3. He did not predestine me unto the adoption as a child Ephesians 1:5
4. There is condemnation for me even though I am in Christ Jesus Romans 8:1
5. Christ has not risen from the dead Romans 6:8-12
6. The Holy Spirit will take back His deposit Ephesians 1:13-14
7. The Holy Spirit did not seal us 2 Corinthians 1:22
8. He will leave me and He will forsake me Hebrews 13:5
9. He will not keep me from falling Jude 24
10. He will not preserve me forever Psalm 37:28
11. The truth (Jesus Christ) will not be with me forever 2 John 2
12. He did not cleanse me from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9
13. His foundation is not sure 2 Timothy 2:19
14. He does not know them that are His 2 Timothy 2:19
15. He will cast me out John 6:37
16. He did not perfect me Hebrews 10:14
17. His prayer for me was not answered John 17:11-12
18. He is not interceding for me Hebrews 7:25
19. He did not complete the work He began in me Philippians 1:6
20. My life is not hid with Christ in God Colossians 3:3
21. I have not passed from death unto life John 5:24
22. He is not able to keep that which I have committed to Him 2 Timothy 1:12
23. I am not at peace with God Romans 5:1
24. I can be plucked out of His hand John 10:28-29
25. I can be separated from the love of God Romans 8:39
26. His righteousness is not everlasting Psalm 119:142
27. His love is not everlasting Jeremiah 31:3
28. He is not immutable Hebrews 6:18
29. He did not keep His promise Hebrews 6:17
30. He is a liar Titus 1:2

The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a

Source: http://www.eschatology.com/eternal.html

Biblical Perseverance includes gospel promises and gospel warning of which true Faith take heeds to.

Hence brother Nathan Pitchford quotes these Word's of God in is artilce,

God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith

1Cor 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Gal 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Eph 5:5 "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Heb 10:26-27 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Heb 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

Rev 21:7-8 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Rev 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."


However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

1Cor 1:30-31 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

1Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

1Cor 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Gal 3:1-6 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Phi 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

1The 5:23-24 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."

Heb 13:20-21 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

1John 2:29 "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

Jud 1:24-25 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

Source: see intro to thread
Nathan Pitchford: http://pitchfordsramblings.com/who-we-are-and-what-we-believe/


Consider thes sobering words from Spurgeon,

"I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence...The God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and condemns the next...is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name."
-Charles Spurgeon

The Arminians tell us that a man may receive
spiritual life, and yet may die eternally.

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

Oh! I cannot bear to speak of such lies.
As for me, I so deeply believe in the immutable love
of Jesus that I suppose that if one believer were to be in hell,
Christ himself would not long stay in heaven, but would cry,
"To the rescue!"

Oh! if Jesus Christ were in glory with one the gems lacking
in his crown, and Satan had that gem, Satan would say,
"Aha! prince of light and glory, I have one of your jewels!"
and he would hold it up, and then he would say,
"Aha! you died for this man, but you had not strength enough
to save him; you loved him once--where is your love?
It is not worth having, for you then hate him afterwards!"

And how would Satan chuckle over that 'heir of heaven',
and hold him up, and say, "This man was redeemed;
Jesus Christ purchased him with his blood!"
And plunging him in the waves of hell, he would say,
"There 'purchased one' see how I can rob the Son of God!"
And then again he would say, "This man was forgiven, behold
the justice of God! He is to be punished again after he is
forgiven. Christ suffered for this man's sins once, and yet"
says Satan with a malignant joy, "I have him now;
for God exacted the punishment twice!"

Shall that ever be said? Ah! no!
Arminian, go away with your vile gospel.
My Master said, "I give unto my sheep ETERNAL life,
and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
pluck them out of my hands."

Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.

(Spurgeon, "The Two Effects of the Gospel")

Blessings,

-Abraham



EDIT: spell check and sentence grammar


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/24 23:42Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

Quote:
Quote: And yet, do we not find it so fascinating that we are explaining doctrines of God in such a manner that it is a great mystery to us how God could not possibly be the author of sin;

Could you explain this?
Are you actually saying that God is the author of sin?
Or am I misunderstanding your point?
Are you saying that with the verse which you quoted from James, "how could anyone possibly say that God is the author of sin."



I am not saying God is the author of sin. I think it rather gross to entertain a notion that God should tempt or command people to sin. So I was criticizing how interesting it is that God is being described in such a manner that it should appear a great mystery to some, that while most of us say God is not the author of sin, many of these arguments would on the contrary lead us to believe He is.

Quote:
STATEMENTS AND PROMISES OF GOD THAT WOULD BE NULLIFIED IF ONE COULD LOSE THEIR SALVATION...
The consequences of believing a person can lose their salvation create obvious theological problems that contradict scripture. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4a



Hm, I don't know about this statement.

Quote:
The Arminians tell us that a man may receive
spiritual life, and yet may die eternally.

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

Oh! I cannot bear to speak of such lies.
As for me, I so deeply believe in the immutable love
of Jesus that I suppose that if one believer were to be in hell,
Christ himself would not long stay in heaven, but would cry,
"To the rescue!"



What about when Jesus said in His parable,
[b]Matthew 18
21.[/b] Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
[b]22.[/b] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
[b]23.[/b] Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
[b]24.[/b] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
[b]25.[/b] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[b]26.[/b] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[b]27.[/b] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[b]28.[/b] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[b]29.[/b] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[b]30.[/b] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[b]31.[/b] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[b]32.[/b] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[b]33.[/b] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[b]34.[/b] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[b]35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/b]

Notice, the servant was forgiven his "unpayable debt" and then the debt was reinstated because he did not go and do likewise. This is where it might be of interest to mention the preaching of Charles Finney ... and before there are any "Pelagian" comments, I have looked over many of the criticisms in this regard and do not find them to be substantiated in context to that claim. Either way (if he was or wasn't) I find it strange how Finney would say salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works and then we are to told to believe he continues his teachings attempting to claim that we are saved by works ... Anyways, to the point.

Here the servant was delivered (saved) from the judgment of his condemnation and not by any works he had done but on the sole basis of the King's compassion.

[b]2 Peter 2
20.[/b] For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
[b]21.[/b] For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
[b]22.[/b] It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Quote:
Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.



For the record, I would currently label myself leaning towards Molinism; not Arminianism or Calvinism; but to be fair, Calvinists essentially say the same thing with different words, ie. "They were never regenerated or born-again after all" or "They departed from us because they were never one of us."

Arminians tend to focus on the scriptures that commend us all to perservere, for only those who overcome shall inherit eternal life; that is, those scriptures which warn of the broad path unto hell and God's abiding wrath upon the ungodly.
[b]Revelation 3:5[/b], "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Calvinists tend to focus on those scriptures that only have to do with those who shall in the end attain the prize of eternal life (the elect); that is, those scriptures which encourage us on the narrow path unto eternal life and God's abounding grace.

I guess we might even say this is, in a manner, an emphasis either on the life lived and then the life to come or rather the life to come and then the life lived here and now.

Honestly, I agree with both positions. I believe those who perservere in faith shall stand unshaken and thus remain to be perfected in holiness in the fear of the Lord by the sovereign grace of God. And I would also say those who consider lightly the blood of Christ shall not stand by their testimony, as [b]2 Peter 1:9[/b] says, "For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins." I would say these are in danger of being those wherein the seeds of the word of Christ rooted and sprang up in their hearts but the life of it was choked out of them.


I probably just kicked up a hornet's nest :-P


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/25 4:56Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
What about when Jesus said in His parable, Matthew 18 21. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22. Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.




I can tell you what it doesn't mean.

It could not mean that a born again child of God may perish in the end:

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If your born of God, you...
1. Sinneth not
2. keepeth yourself
3. And that wicked one toucheth you not

Those who are born of God cannot practice habitual sin.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Notice the very reason why they cannot... it is because they are born of God...

Not because of their keeping themselves and sinnething not. Though they do keepeth themselves and sinneth not... this is not the foundation of their hope. The Foundation of their hope is in the finished work of Jesus and that God has promised that the work he began will be victorious.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Matthew Henry (A Calvinistic Puritan) wrote this concerning this verse,
"The danger of not forgiving; So shall your heavenly Father do. (1.) This is not intended to teach us that God reverses his pardons to any, but that he denies them to those that are unqualified for them, according to the tenour of the gospel; though having seemed to be humbled, like Ahab, they thought themselves, and others thought them, in a pardoned state, and they made bold with the comfort of it. Intimations enough we have in scripture of the forfeiture of pardons, for caution to the presumptuous; and yet we have security enough of the continuance of them, for comfort to those that are sincere, but timorous; that the one may fear, and the other may hope. Those that do not forgive their brother's trespasses, did never truly repent of their own, nor ever truly believe the gospel; and therefore that which is taken away is only what they seemed to have, Luk_8:18. (2.) This is intended to teach us, that they shall have judgment without mercy, that have showed no mercy, Jam_2:13. It is indispensably necessary to pardon and peace, that we not only do justly, but love mercy. It is an essential part of that religion which is pure and undefiled before God and the Father, of that wisdom from above, which is gentle, and easy to be entreated. Look how they will answer it another day, who, though they bear the Christian name, persist in the most rigorous and unmerciful treatment of their brethren, as if the strictest laws of Christ might be dispensed with for the gratifying of their unbridled passions; and so they curse themselves every time they say the Lord's prayer."

-Abraham


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/27 0:01Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
For the record, I would currently label myself leaning towards Molinism



http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=Molinism&B1=Go


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/27 2:26Profile
awakenwithin
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 985
AZ

 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

Abe,
thank you brother, you are co worker with me for the gosple. Praise Be to God because of you. You are greaty loved by Christ Jesus. Keep speaking truth, with humility and gentleness. God shares his glory with no other. I see your love and zeal for the Lord, and it greaty honored. He has called you and made known his truth you. You have been faithfull to share these wonderful truth to those you care for and love, our beloved brothers. Be in much prayer, for then comes power. Great is our God, Great is the gosple,
Much be all the more passionate and bold to speak the gosple right, never adding or taking away.

I am praying for you Brother, to have wisdom, grace and humility in all your words. Don't grow weary in writting but trst in the Lord who can bring you up again and again with his power. Preach the truth brother, with fire and passion and love that comes from God.

Glory to God.
Charlene


_________________
charlene

 2008/11/27 18:40Profile





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