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Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

I thank God for your prayers. I trust that through them, God shall manifest His comfort to us. You are dearly loved. -Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 19:22Profile
int3grity
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re:

Hello narrowpath. I can't help but post a video here for you that shows the fallacious and egregious manner in which Dave Hunt slanders the doctrines of grace. If you hear his debate with James White where he admits to ignorance of the Reformers and the original languages of the Bible you will understand that he doesn't know what he is talking about and his tirades are simply an attempt to preserve his pride. I am grieved at how twisted peoples views are of these doctrines and even the history surrounding them because of the irresponsible rants Dave Hunt has spewed out. Watch this video to see how he twists Scripture and ignores the obvious just to keep his pride in tact. The video is ten minutes. Forgive my strong words but I am upset at how many people I meet who almost hate me because they believe the misinformation they read and heard from Dave Hunt:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2IBvETGVD0&feature=PlayList&p=348B16F84EA1D84F&index=75


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Ryan

 2008/11/17 2:08Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

As a five-point Wesleyan, may I suggest those who advocate Predestination/Reprobation read John Wesley's famous sermon on the topic.

[url=http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/58/]Sermon 58: Predestination[/url]

If possible read it out aloud so that you get some sense of the passion which lies within it.


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Ron Bailey

 2008/11/17 8:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:
O that men would praise the Lord for this his goodness; and that they would be content with this plain account of it, and not endeavour to wade into those mysteries which are too deep for angels to fathom!



I am no Wesley, never will be...far from it, but why is his conclusion on the matter of election and predestination the same as anyone who seemingly does not want to discuss this important Truth of scripture.

I do not find election or predestination hard to be understood. In fact, I think scripture is clear on it, and what God has revealed to us is simple enough that a child could understand. The child may not like what God has revealed, but he can understand. And, no doubt, that child will not like what God has revealed until he allows God to slay his preconceived notions of who He is.

 2008/11/17 14:00
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

The only thing that is confusing me in all of this discussion (on this thread and others), is this point:

If there is one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that God is NOT the author of sin&evil -- by author I do not mean that God did not create sin&evil, for He has always had knowledge of both good and evil ([b]Genesis 3:22[/b]), but I mean this:

[b]James 1
13.[/b] Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
[b]14.[/b] But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
[b]15.[/b] Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
[b]16.[/b] Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
[b]17.[/b] Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

And yet, do we not find it so fascinating that we are explaining doctrines of God in such a manner that it is a great mystery to us how God could not possibly be the author of sin; with the exception of those who have come right out and said God in fact is -- which is bizarre.

Is it honestly a mystery how God could not be the author of man's sin? I guess it depends on how deterministic our theology is when we interpret the scriptures.


Or might we say, "No, no, God does not tempt anyone with sin, He commands it."


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Jordan

 2008/11/17 14:33Profile
SonofMan
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Joined: 2008/5/5
Posts: 21


 Re:

This was a great post. It has really cleared alot up for me. I never saw that In Isaiah 53, Praise God! That is a great revelation!


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Rayshawn

 2008/11/17 22:30Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I do not find election or predestination hard to be understood. In fact, I think scripture is clear on it, and what God has revealed to us is simple enough that a child could understand. The child may not like what God has revealed, but he can understand. And, no doubt, that child will not like what God has revealed until he allows God to slay his preconceived notions of who He is.



Amen.


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TJ

 2008/11/17 22:49Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
I do not find election or predestination hard to be understood. In fact, I think scripture is clear on it, and what God has revealed to us is simple enough that a child could understand. The child may not like what God has revealed, but he can understand. And, no doubt, that child will not like what God has revealed until he allows God to slay his preconceived notions of who He is.



Amen.



Poor child if he/she gets hung up into confusion over the doctrine of poor misguided souls leading others into the errors of the doctrines of men.

I believe it would be best to teach children John 3:16 and the bible truth that sets men free and not confuse them with wondering what category they might be in before the foundation of the world.

I thank God that everybody who truly believes are saved and that everybody can be the one who believes. Everybody can put their name in the place of the whosoever, because what God says to one, he says to all. There is no respecter of persons with God only misguided souls.

I am so glad that the only mediator between God and man is the man Christ Jesus. He does not confuse people. He does not speak as mere men speak. He does not want anybody to ever think that he didn't die for them. He will have all men to be saved. Praise his holy name!

There is nobody here now that was there before the foundation of the world giving God any counsel nor receiving any understanding. We better quit trying to figure out what God was thinking before the foundation of the world and get on with the responsibility of believing in His Son in the here and now.

 2008/11/17 23:29Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
As a five-point Wesleyan, may I suggest those who advocate Predestination/Reprobation read John Wesley's famous sermon on the topic. Sermon 58: Predestination If possible read it out aloud so that you get some sense of the passion which lies within it.



I exhort you to read George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley entitled "No, dear Sir, you mistake."
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm

I also recommend these following article on the subjetc:

[1] John Gill's response to Mr. Wesley’s view of predestination.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Sermons&Tracts/sermon_07.htm

[2] Spurgeon's sermon on "Predestination and Calling"
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0241.htm

[3] John Bunyan's article on "Reprobation Asserted
[url=http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.Bunyan/Sermons.Allegories/Reprobation.Asserted/index.html]Reprobation Asserted[/url]

The words Predestination and Reprobation are in your KJV bible.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-31

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -Ephesians 1:5

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." -Ephesians 1:11


"Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them." -Jeremiah 6:30

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient." -Romans 1:21

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" -2 Corinthians 13:5

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." -2 Timothy 3:8

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." -Titus 1:16

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/22 19:20Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
He does not want anybody to ever think that he didn't die for them. He will have all men to be saved. Praise his holy name!



I understand your concerns and it is my desire to be patient with you and gentle in my response. If any wicked man dare say "Christ has not died for me"... we may say with Luther, "Thou, too, art part of the world, so that thine heart cannot deceive itself and think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me."

If there be any poor soul that feels that Christ would never die for them. We may say with Spurgeon, "Will you answer me a question or two, and I will tell you whether He died for you. Do you want a Saviour? Do you feel that you need a Saviour? Are you this morning conscious of sin? Has the Holy Spirit taught you that you are lost? Then Christ died for you and you will be saved. Are you this morning conscious that you have no hope in the world but Christ? Do you feel that you of yourself cannot offer an atonement that can satisfy God's justice? Have you given up all confidence in yourselves? And can you say upon your bended knees, "Lord, save, or I perish"? Christ died for you. If you are saying this morning, "I am as good as I ought to be; I can get to Heaven by my own good works," then, remember, the Scripture says of Jesus, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." So long as you are in that state I have no atonement to preach to you. But if this morning you feel guilty, wretched, conscious of your guilt, and are ready to take Christ to be your only Saviour, I can not only say to you that you may be saved, but what is better still, that you will be saved. When you are stripped of everything, but hope in Christ, when you are prepared to come empty-handed and take Christ to be your all, and to be yourself nothing at all, then you may look up to Christ, and you may say, "Thou dear, Thou bleeding Lamb of God! thy griefs were endured for me; by thy stripes I am healed, and by thy sufferings I am pardoned." And then see what peace of mind you will have; for if Christ has died for you, you cannot be lost."
(quoted from Spurgeon's sermon "Particular Redemption")

Spurgeon says elsewhere, "A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased -- a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it. (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)

We must let every lost soul hear of the Soveriegn grace of God. God does not hide His scripture from us. So, why should we hide it from the lost? My friend it is through the death of Christ that we are saved. We do not make Christ's finished work effectual upon us. He makes it effectual upon whom He will. For the Holy Spirit says through the mouth of Paul,
"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." -Romans 8:29-34

Who is the Holy Spirit speaking of when He says, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

The Holy Spirit tells us exactly who they are as He says, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit precedes this thought by saying, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -Romans 8:29-30

Regarding God's "gospel will" (which you may understand at this time through the word and grace of God)... Yes, he does command all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

Regarding God's Sovereign Electing Love, He has chosen a number of which no man can number out of every kindred, tongue tribe, and nation. (See Rev 5:9, It's true my friend) In this sense He has died for the whole world and He will draw the world unto himself.

A believer may have assurance that He is among God's eternally beloved. The wicked can have no assurance of God's eternal love, unless the Spirit of God manifests it unto them by granting them a new heart of Faith in the gospel.

It is foolish for us to tell the wicked, "You are saved!" So also, it is foolish to tell the wicked that God has reconciled them through the death of His Son. Scripture never asserts these promises to Every wicked person. God commands all the wicked to believe on Him who justifies the ungodly. But, never does God assert that his atonement is made effectual by their will and running. (Read Romans 9) But, rather the promises are only to believers and they only can be assured of the promises of God.

Every believer is already born of God. There is no such thing as a whosoever believer that is not born of God. (read Rom 3 and 1Jn 5:1)

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." -Rom 3:25-26

The following is from an article which I posted a the link to in the intro:

The implications of believing in a universal atonement or a general ransom.
Many will be eternally separated from Christ for whom He...

1. was their sacrificial atonement (payment for sin) 1 John 2:2
2. was their ransom (redemption price) Matthew 20:28
3. had paid their ransom in full Ephesians 1:7
4. gave forgiveness (liberty, pardon, freedom, deliverance from sins) Matthew 26:28
5. was manifested 1 Peter 1:20
6. redeemed from the curse of the law Galatians 3:13
7. bought with a price 1 Corinthians 6:20
8. obtained eternal redemption Hebrews 9:12
9. gave Himself to deliver them Galatians 1:4
10. brought to glory Hebrews 2:10
11. delivered from fear of death Hebrews 2:15
12. destroyed death Hebrews 2:14
13. reconciled (restored to Divine favor and made fully right Romans 5:10
14. did not impute their sins to them 2 Corinthians 5:19
15. made peace by the blood of His cross Ephesians 2:13-16
16. offered Himself to perfect them forever Hebrews 10:14
17. prayed Hebrews 7:25 & John 17
18. was their Passover (lit. victim) 1 Corinthians 5:7
19. took away their sins John 1:29 & Col. 2:13-14
20. put away their sin (lit. canceled) Hebrews 9:26
21. bore their sin (lit. carried away) 1 Peter 2:24
22. healed them by His stripes (lit. mended by stitching) Isaiah 53:5
23. was their testator (will writer) Hebrews 9:16-17
24. gave His life for their life John 6:51
25. purchased [peripoiomai] (lit. bought) Acts 20:28
26. sanctified [hagiadzo] (made holy) Ephesians 5:26-27
27. cleansed with His own blood [katharidzo] (to purify) Ephesians 5:26
28. appointed for salvation 1 Thessalonians 5:9
29. said would live together with Him because of His death 1 Thessalonians 5:10
30. was separated from their Father Matthew 27:46
31. finished His work [teleo] (completely paid the debt) John 19:30

The redemptive work of Christ on the cross was effectual for His people (the Church - consisting of Jews and Gentiles).

For a person to say that Christ paid the penalty for sins of those that will burn in hell forever, or to say that a born again believer could lose their salvation is seems to nullify the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Romans 8:31-34 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Hallelujah!


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/22 20:27Profile





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