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Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
The question still stands, brother: Luke 6:35, "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." How does this fit in to your doctrine that the Father gave His Beloved Son expecting a reward: the Bride; sovereignly requiring the salvation of this amount: *_________________________* ?



God does not expect man to make himself worthy of His free grace nor does He require man to make payments for it that it may be earned. In this sense Jesus does not expect a reward from man, when He compels sinners to to come to Him.

However, He does expect accomplishments from His death. And these accomplishments are rewards that He himself gives. It is God who grants sinners a New heart of Faith and Repentance. These graces are not not man's gift to God. We freely give our love and affection to Him. But, It is God who grants us the increase of Faith, hope, and Love, by the power of His Spirit through His Word. His reward is His own accomplishments and not our will or running causing His death to be efficacious.

[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:8-10

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." -Hebrews 12:2

"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. -Luke 15:10

"For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?" -2Th 2:19

The Father does expect a victorious redemption from Himself when He reconciled us to himself through the death and resurrection of His own Son.

"[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -Isaiah 53:10-12



Brother, in your writings you have been very edifying and your exhortations on mercy have blessed me. I thank God for His working in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 1:17Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
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Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
I have asked this question before. Is it necessary for us to love God before we may have faith in Him? Consider this point: "those who are forgiven much, love much" therefore if this is true then we must be forgiven before we can love. That is to say, we are forgiven before we have faith. Do you think this is an accurate statement?



In some points I would agree. I wouldn't want to separate Faith and love. For if any of these graces be in a man, they a married together. Love without Faith is sin and Faith without Love is dead.

Quote:
That is to say, we are forgiven before we have faith. Do you think this is an accurate statement?



This is true in the sense that our sins were forgiven at the cross when Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Let us encourage one another that His prayers are not in vain and nor was His death for us. He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Let us continually give thanks to His name for His right hand and His holy arm hath gotten Him the victory.

However, the assurance of our sins being forgiven is only granted to us when we have Faith in Him who justifies the ungodly and Love to God. For if any man love God, the same is known of him.

The increase of Love in us is wrought in us through the revelation of His forgiving love towards us. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is the Word of God by the Spirit of God that takes us into to deeper revelations of our sinfulness and His forgiveness.

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 1:36Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
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 Re:

Quote:
This is true in the sense that our sins were forgiven at the cross when Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."




Well, how can Jesus say that to them who crucified him and then not send them irresistable grace so that his prayer would be answered?
This MUST mean that God has forgiven them and a number of them rejected his forgiveness.

Jesus should then have said, Father forgive SOME who you will send irresistable grace and damn the others.

 2008/11/16 10:35Profile
live4jc
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Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?



Dear brother Abe,

In this discussion thread, you asked the question of whether the Trinity can be frustrated and by ‘frustrated’ I’m understanding you to mean that things which God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit desire... are not coming to pass.

To this I would answer “yes”-the Trinity can be frustrated.



I believe that the apostle Stephen, when he preached his great sermon to those were ready to stone him, expressed the ‘frustration’ of God’s heart:

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

What would the Holy Spirit have wanted these men to do who were ‘ resisting Him’ ? Stephen called them uncircumcised in heart, suggesting that this was something that needed to be corrected...Did the Holy Spirit want them to sin less...or to come to Christ through repentance and faith ?



Maybe a better example of the frustration Jesus had over people’s unwillingness to repent and believe the gospel is this one :

(Matt. 11:20,21).
“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”

I would describe Jesus as frustrated here. Why is he frustrated ? He is frustrated because people in cities such as Chorazin have not repented. He also says that if people living in cities like Tyre had seen similar works that the people in Chorazin have witnessed, “they would have repented long ago”.

So Jesus is frustrated because these wicked people had the ability to repent...but are not repenting. Would you agree that this is an accurate picture of Jesus’ state of mind and the source of his frustration ? When Jesus bemoaned the fact that these people were not repenting....does this imply that they should have just stopped doing certain sins or did it imply a whole turning to him with all their heart, resulting in conversion ?



Furthermore, in John 5: 39,40 Jesus is recorded as saying , “ You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”

I believe that if we would have been there, hearing Jesus speak these words, we would have described his emotional state as ‘frustrated’. Again why is he frustrated ? Because of people’s unwillingness to repent and to come to him for salvation.



Then, another instance of Christ’s frustration, can be seen where he tells people in Jerusalem that ‘he was willing...but they were not’ :

Matt. 23:37
-- “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”



Paul and Barnabas also expressed a godly frustration that people were ‘judging themselves unworthy of everlasting life’ :

Acts 13:46
“Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

What did Paul and Barnabas mean by, “judging yourselves unworthy of eternal life ?”




As far as the universality of the salvation gift, I believe there are many passages that speak to this issue. One, which is possibly less commonly seen as being connected with this issue is this one :

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Later, in the passage this portion is contained in, the future of these False prophets is clearly laid out; they are headed for judgment, they are headed for Hell.

And yet, doesn’t 2 Peter 2:1 tell us that Christ ‘bought them’, (through his death on the cross) ?



Again, I believe there are a great many passages that speak to the universality of Christ’s gift of salvation.

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Doesn’t this verse imply that ‘all’ of us (each human being) have gone astray and this same ‘all’ have had their sins laid on Christ ?




Here again, in another passage, God is telling us that by seeking Him, people can find him and that He is not far from “each one of us” :

Acts 17:26-27
“And [God] made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.




Lastly, Christ is said to have died for the sins of the ‘whole world’ :

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



Brother, these are my understandings of these passages, however I would be interested in hearing your interpretation of them.

With love in Christ,
John






 2008/11/16 12:08Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
Well, how can Jesus say that to them who crucified him and then not send them irresistable grace so that his prayer would be answered? This MUST mean that God has forgiven them and a number of them rejected his forgiveness. Jesus should then have said, Father forgive SOME who you will send irresistable grace and damn the others.



Dear friend, Jesus prayed and His prayers were answered upon His Elect. Many who shed His blood that day where soon washed in His blood on the day of Pentecost. (Read Acts 2-4) If you do not like that, then you must conclude that His prayers are in vain and that they do not avail to what He intends them to avail. What confidence do you find to pray for souls by the Spirit of God? For you believe that even many of Jesus' prayers were answered from the Father, "No."

Quote:
Jesus should then have said, Father forgive SOME who you will send irresistable grace and damn the others.


The Following are some quotes from Charles Spurgeon on the Subject

"A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).

... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

"I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite sure that if God had not chosen me I should never have chosen him; and I am sure he chose me before I was born, or else he never would have chosen me afterwards; and he must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why he should
have looked upon me with special love. 2LS47

"Those who cavil at the doctrine of election should answer this question: “Why is it that God has left devils without hope, and yet has sent His Son to redeem mankind? Is not divine sovereignty manifested here?' TN25

"Your d**nation is your own election, not God’s; you richly deserve it. 239.119

"How is it that some of us who were once drunkards, swearers, and the like, are now sitting here to praise the God of Israel this day? Was there anything good in us that moved the heart of God to save us? God forbid that we should indulge the blasphemous thought." 290.34

"I never yet knew anybody repent who gloried in his power to repent; I never yet knew a man heart-broken for sin who boasted that he could break his own heart when and where he pleased." 2050.591

"“But,” say others, “God elected them on the foresight of their faith.” Now, God gives faith, therefore he could not have elected them on account of faith, which he foresaw. There shall be twenty beggars in the street, and I determine to give one of them a shilling; but will any one say that I determined to give that one a shilling, that I elected him to have the shilling, because I foresaw that he would have it? That would be talking nonsense. In like manner to say that God elected men because he foresaw they would have faith, which is salvation in the germ, would be too absurd for us to listen to for a moment." 41,42.317





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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 15:30Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
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 Re:

Quote:
To this I would answer “yes”-the Trinity can be frustrated.



You believe He is frustrated.

FRUS'TRATED, pp. Defeated; disappointed; rendered vain or null. -Webster's 1828

"[9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." -Isaiah 46:9-11

Do you realize that if Jesus did not have the power and grace to fulfill His purpose and decree of saving His apostles and prophets, You would not have the word of God in your hands today. Are going to ascribe this to the will of man? Are you going to say that the word of God came about with the help of the will of man? So also, it is absurd and false to say that Salvation came about by the will of man.

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Pe 1:21)

It is necessary for me to repeat what I wrote earlier in this thread. For I have yet to hear of a man, say that this verse does not mean what it says.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Notice the words in the last verse of this passage in Ezekiel. You have the words walk, keep and do. Prior to these words, you have the word Cause. Prior to the word Cause, you have the words I Will repeated numerous times by God and not you.

It was His will. It wasn't from your will. He caused it. You didn't cause it. We love Him, because He first loved us. Praise Him for His mercy. Come, Let us run to His throne of Grace and wash His feet with our tears! Praise Him for His mercy!

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth." -Psalm 110:3

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." -Rom 9:16

A dear friend presented this statement to me, "I would think it is because it is unreasonable to command us to do something we could not do."

My Response to him was this:

God often commands men to do that which they will not and cannot do. Therefore God has the right command and He does command sinners to do what they ought to do even though they do not have the heart or will to do it.

"O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart." (Pro 8:5)

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co 2:14) "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Rom 3:11) "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (Jn 8:43)

Many assume that it is unjust for God to command someone to do that which they are unwilling and unable to do. Sadly, this reasoning has led many to conclude for the natural man, "If God commands it, they must have the will and ability to perform it. If they don't, then God is unjust for commanding it." However (as we have seen in scripture), God often commands men to do that which they are unable and unwilling to do.

1. He has the right to do as he pleases. He's God and we are not. He determines what is just and we are to submit to the bible even if it goes against human reasoning.
2. He commands men to make themselves a new heart and clean themselves, so that they may taste of their own inability/unwillingness. This bitter taste of hopelessness in the soul will box sinners up to the mercy of God revealed at the Cross of Christ and it is God's way of teaching sinners not to trust in their own hearts or their own dead works.
3. God shall have glory to himself, when He graciously and mercifully gives saving grace that makes sinners into new creatures through the washing of regeneration by the truth and preaching of the gospel. God gets the glory because he chose to bless an undeserving sinner with a new heart.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1Co 1:26-21)

Blessings to the glory of God! -Abraham






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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 16:02Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brother Abe,

I love the word of God.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

This was my testimony I used after I was saved. He gave me a new heart and he put His Spirit in me and causes me to walk in His ways.

We can't do the will of God unless He causes us to.

We must turn to Him in faith and then He will cause us to walk in His ways.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

God says look unto me and be ye saved. He does not save anybody before they look and he will not cause anyone to do his will until after they believe. Faith comes before regeneration.

 2008/11/16 16:18Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

I wrote this earlier in the thread:
God desires all men universally to hate their sin and set their affection upon Him. God does not take pleasure in the sin of man nor their love of death. He does not delight in Man's Utter Ruin and Rebellion.

In God providence, He has purposes and permitted man's Rebellion to take place in it's utter and complete detail.

Let not a man think that God is not grieved and even brought to tears at the sinners rebellion.

Quote:
Again, I believe there are a great many passages that speak to the universality of Christ’s gift of salvation. Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.



If you keep reading through Isaiah 53, God clarifies the victory of Christ's death on those for whom He died.

"[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -Isaiah 53:10-12

Notice the words many. It does not say everyone universally were justified through His work on the cross.

My friend, I know it is your desire for the world to be saved. You must understand that God is saving the world. He is saving a people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. (Read Rev 5:9) And if I might add to that statement, No one is going to stop God or frustrate His purposes. For the Holy Spirit says, "the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." ...and again He says, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" Revelation 5:9

Your idea of the death of Christ does not guarantee the Salvation of a people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. You make God out to be like you. You merely desire Everyone Universally to Be saved. But, you have no Sovereign power to decree Mercy upon whom you will. "...Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thyself." (Psa 50:21)" Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exo 15:11) "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." (Isa 45:18)

The God of the bible is a miracle working God. He can accomplish that which is impossible for man to do. Let this be encouraging to you when you pray for souls. For I desire your edification. God is able to save the worst of sinners. Pray with confidence in the power and grace of God. Weep over their sin, but do not feel frustrated as though God is not able save that sinner.

-Abraham

Edit:spell check



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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 16:29Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
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 Re:

I added this to the edification section at the begging of the thread. I pray that God will use it to bless you with joy in the goodness of God.

(Edit addition 3 - placed here to add to the edification section)
4. When I held my first born baby Isaac in my arms and kissed him goodbye, I would not have found peace that surpasses understanding and I would not have worshiped the Lord in that hour, unless I had known the Sovereign God of the Bible who is Sovereign over all things. My son died almost 4 weeks ago and I wont let anyone discourage me that God was not Sovereign over it. I rejoice that God has ordained this trail in my life to conform me into His image and to manifest His Son in me. He is not a frustrated God who cannot accomplish His purposes. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

Ashley and I were given the blessing to hold Isaac and Worship the Lord for His Sovereign goodness towards us. We trust that He ordained this to conform us to His image.

This moment has been brought to me by the cross of Christ, by the love of Christ, and by the goodness of Christ. Let us rejoice and be glad in it! Brothers and sisters, I pray that the Lord may take us deeper into the waters of His grace. There is Peace in Christ that surpasses understanding of which I have found myself hungering after even more as a result of this event in our lives.

Please read this portion of the sermon by John Piper that God has used to strengthen me in this trial:

"I met a young woman from India a few years ago who thanked me for the truth she had heard in something I had said and asked if she could write to me. When she was born a treatable disease was misdiagnosed, and she was paralyzed. By age 14 she had had 21 surgeries and was cruelly treated by other children calling her "crippled." She became a Christian in high school. She married, had four miscarriages, and her second child died in her husband's arms at two months. She closed the letter,

I have read many books on suffering, but they are often so man-centered and... nullify, or at least diminish the glory, majesty and sovereignty of God. It is radical thinking to say that God wills and ordains our suffering and not just passively allows it, hoping to make the best of it for us. As I have grown in my walk, I can see that nothing in this world happens apart from the sovereign will of God."


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 18:11Profile
live4jc
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Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:



Dear brother Abe,

These are deep waters you must be going through. Thank you for sharing about your son, Isaac. I'm sure that you will always treasure the memory of holding him in your arms.

Did you happen to read what Frank (apollus) shared about his son passing away at a young age ?

I have never experienced anything so painful as this. In the past few years, I have experienced the loss of my mom in law, and of a friend. Also, last year my youngest son Daniel experienced a bad burn on his back and had to be hospitalized for a week. God's sovereignty and steadfast love have also been a great comfort to me at these times.

I'll pray for you and your wife that you will experience His everlasting arms upholding you at this time.

I'm glad you're on this forum :-)

Love in Christ,
John

 2008/11/16 19:06Profile





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