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boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: God hates sin, God hates sinners, & God's love is conditional

Quote:
Jesus clearly stated that He did not come to condemn the world but that through Him, the world might be saved.



This still doesn't change the fact that the world is "condemned already" ([b]John 3:18[/b]) and those who have "not believed on the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God [already] abides on them ([b]John 3:36[/b])."


Quote:
He not only came to show His compassion but His rage for the religeous leaders whe were supposed to be doing it but weren't.



Does this mean that the adulterous woman is without danger of the wrath of God and eternal hell? Are only the religious leaders in danger of condemnation?

Are not the "lukewarm" vomitous to the Lord? We do not need to be "cold" like the pharisees to be cast into the lake of fire.


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Jordan

 2008/11/12 20:37Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3546
Louisiana

 Re:

Quote:

This does not change the fact that the world is condemned already. (John 3:18)


Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8: 1-11).

Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery, but the religious hypocrits did, and wanted to stone her according to the law of Moses.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

"For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17).

"For God so love the world". Who did God love? The world which consisted of sinful mankind. For this purpose He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."


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Mike

 2008/11/12 23:37Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: God hates sin, God hates sinners, & God's love is conditional

Quote:
Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery, but the religious hypocrits did, and wanted to stone her according to the law of Moses.



But the woman was still already condemned by God.


Quote:
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).



And likewise, we shall be condemned by the grace we rejected and judged by the truth.


Quote:
that whosoever believes in Him should not perish



Which means, that if they do not believe they will perish into everlasting fire. I have noticed here and there, this part of the verse is just passed over to get to the "good stuff."


Forgive me if it sounds like I am being "edgy" but it is necessary if balance is going to be restored into our teachings and doctrines of God. So, please, if I may ask ... how do these things you are bringing up in these testimonies of Jesus convince me that I need a Savior to save me from the wrath of God against sinners? Or, are you merely interested in telling people that He is "All-Loving" towards everybody and wants to give us all eternal life?

I have been considering whether I ought to introduce another characteristic of God to balance this "All-Loving" and call it His "All-Hating." What do you all think about that idea?


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Jordan

 2008/11/13 1:07Profile
MJones
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Joined: 2008/10/31
Posts: 320
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 Re:

Quote:

boG wrote:


merely interested in telling people that He is "All-Loving" towards everybody and wants to give us all eternal life?




Though I understand what you mean when you make this statement. I agree there are many who have come to overlook the fact that there is wrath to face if we reject Christ and remain in our sin. Where many have lost sight of that fact, still some others, including myself are partly motivated by that fact to do what we do.

I say partly motivated for a reason, of which I will try to explain. There are many who come to God in hopes of missing His wrath. Is that proper motivation?

There is a higher reason, and where there is the aspect of wrath contained in the scripture, this higher calling wreaks from scriture.

Interesting you use the term 'eternal life', because that is the higher calling that far outways the avoidance of wrath. This higher calling is the only thing that frees us from the trappings of sin. I might add here that sin is anything that keeps us from experiencing this 'eternal life' that God/Jesus so desperately desires we come to know.

Many think of 'eternal life' as living forever. But actually that would be everlasting life. Eternal life as stated in John 17:3 says, 'Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.'

I have been a Christian 30 years. I have sought God, tought of Him and worked for Him during this time. I have just recently come to know Him as is described here. When you come to know Him in this way, His wrath is not the first thing that comes to mind when telling others about Him. To know Him is so all consuming that in fact you would be willing to endure His wrath to know Him more.

It is this knowing Him that compells us, or should compell us. Not to overlook the wrath, but simply from a perspective of knowing Him, it is secondary.

Allow me to be blunt, but respectful. I sense I may have a few years on you. Your zeal is to be commended. But in our zeal, we have to make sure it is properly focused or we can get off track fast.

Satan's overall goal in any of our lives, is to keep us from coming to know God as I have described. For some, he entices with sin and they never enter the race. But for those who have entered the race, there is still a host of things he has left to keep us from finding God as He is able to be found.

He can suggest that working for God is the way God. No sweat off him. He knows that is not the way to find God, so any that trapes off down that path will be diverted for years.

I'll cut to the chase and get to one that will raise a few eyebrows, but keeping in mind his overall goal is to keep us from coming to know God, I know it to be true. I experienced it. If all else fails, he will tempt you to do good. To take it a step further, he will tempt you to be holy.

I have tried to do good and be holy for 30 years. You can't do it and he knows it. All it does is set you up to hear him say, you'll never make it, or you've blown it again. He twists it to seem as if it is coming from God. But that is what the Pharisees were doing to the masses when Jesus came and let them have it. He did not like it then; He does not like it today.

The only thing that empowers us to be holy is truely knowing God. When and only when, He saturates our entire being, can we be free from the power and distractions of sin.

I would recommend to you, again if I can be blunt but respectful, that you lock yourself up with God until you find Him as I have described. This spirit of emphasis on His wrath is secondary to it. Definitely we need God to escape His wrath, but more we need Him that we might escape the power and stronghold of sin. Even that is a little bit secondary in light of simply knowing Him.

In light of the perspective I have presented, 'merely' is the wrong choice of words. He is 'all' interested in everyone knowing that He is 'All Loving' and longs for all to experience eternal life. He longs for all to know Him. He longs to know all of us. Sadly, not just sinners, but Christians as well, miss this privilege.

So, boG, you asked if anyone could tell you why you needed a savior to save you from the wrath of God against all sinners. You first need a savior that you might have life; escaping His wrath is secondary. Just as knowing God is eternal life now, not knowing Him, as I have described, is in comparison, torment now.

Final thought; if God hates sinners, why did He come to die for them? Why would He not just let everyone perish? He so loved the world that He gave His life for the hope that some would come to know Him.

It is good to remain mindful of the wrath that awaits us if we do not accept Him as savior, but equally, once we have, we need to be mindful of the abundant life that awaits us when we accept Him as Lord.


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Mike Jones

 2008/11/13 8:08Profile
MJones
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 Re:

I apologize to all but boG for the length of my last post. It is primarily addressed to him who will naturally have the most interest in reading the entire content.

To others, read as much as you like. I hope, however much you read, that you will find it helpful.


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Mike Jones

 2008/11/13 8:51Profile
AbideinHim
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Posts: 3546
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 Re:

This message brings a good balance to both the love and wrath of God, the goodness and severity of the Lord.

Quote by Brengle:

"The truth lies between these extremes. There is mercy in God, but it is mingled with severity; there is wrath in God, but it is tempered with mercy."

Misrepresenting God
By Samuel Logan Brengle

I read recently of a speaker who preached on the mercy of God 'until it seemed there was nothing in God but mercy.' But I fear he misrepresented God. Such misrepresentation is easy, and to people who do not think deeply, and who do not want to take life seriously, it is pleasant, but it is unspeakably dangerous.

If we are to win souls and save our own, we must not distort the picture of God's character which we hold up to view. It is life eternal to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent (John xvii. 3); but it must be the true and holy God, as He is, and not some false god who conforms to our poor little warped human desires and opinions.

Some religious teachers misrepresent God by making Him utterly savage and cruel, and they gloat over unutterably horrid pictures of Hell, where they imagine God delighting in the most exquisite tortures of the damned, and thus men are embittered against God until they feel there is no hope of His mercy.

Others misrepresent God by making Him appear as a sort of goody-goody God, who fawns upon sinners with mawkish sympathy and looks upon worldlings and triflers and lukewarm professors with weak, sentimental, old-womanish pity. Nothing can be further from the truth concerning God. We find God Himself bitterly rebuking those who, living in sin, thought He did not disapprove their ways. He sets before them a list of their sins (Psalm 1. 17-20), and then says: 'These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself; but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.' (vv. 21,22.)

The truth lies between these extremes. There is mercy in God, but it is mingled with severity; there is wrath in God, but it is tempered with mercy.

The great soul-winners from Bible times till now have recognized this; they have held an even balance between the goodness and the severity of God, because the Bible does so; and the Bible, of all the innumerable books written, is the only one which gives us an authoritative representation of God.

The book of nature reveals to us the goodness and the severity of God. Fire will not only bake our food, and bless us, but it will also burn us; water will not only quench our thirst and refresh us, but if we trifle with it, it will drown us; if we recognize God's ways of working in nature, and take heed and obey, we shall find nature's laws most kind and helpful; but if we neglect or refuse to obey we shall find them most terrible and destructive.

But if we want to know God in all the richness of His character, and all the fullness of His self-revelation, we must study the Bible and compare Scripture with Scripture.

The Bible tells us of God's unutterable love leading Him to seek sinners in mercy; but His righteousness requires of the sinner penitence, faith, separation from evil, and obedience to His will.

Various Bible descriptions show how God holds an even balance between His mercy and His judgments.

'Behold the goodness and severity of God,' writes Paul: 'on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness; otherwise,' he says (showing that God's goodness does not destroy His severity), 'thou also shalt be cut off.' We must beware! Then he adds a touch of tenderness -- making clear how even in His severity God waits to show mercy -- 'And they also,' though they have been cut off, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in, for God is able to graff them in again.' (Romans xi. 22, 23.)





Again Paul writes, 'I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto Salvation to every one that believeth..... For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, the just shall live by faith.' And then he adds, 'For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.' (Romans i. 16-18.)

And again he writes: 'Despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds; to them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil,.....but glory, honor, and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile, for there is no respect of persons with' God.' (Romans ii. 4- 11.)

The saving mercy of God revealed in the Scriptures is invariably set over against the wrath of God, as the great mountains are set over against the deep seas.

The writer to the Hebrews says of Jesus, 'He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him' (Hebrews vii. 25): while Paul writes of some upon whom 'wrath is come to the uttermost.' (1 Thessalonians ii. 16.)

There is, then, an uttermost Salvation for all who 'trust and obey,' and an uttermost woe for all who go on in selfish unbelief and worldliness and sin. Truly 'God is not mocked,' and He is a God of judgment.

Again, we find Jesus keeping this even balance when He says that those who hear His sayings and do them are like those who build upon a rock, against which rain and floods and winds cannot prevail, while those who hear and do not obey are like those who build upon sand, which will be swept away by rain and floods and wind. (Matthew vii. 24-27.) And again, He says that the wicked shall 'go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.' (Matthew xxv. 46.)

Again, He tells of the shut door at the marriage, with some on the inside with their Lord, and some on the outside, rejected and unknown; of the joy of their Lord into which good and faithful servants enter, and the outer darkness, into which the wicked and slothful are cast; of the great, fixed gulf which is impassable, with some on the right side in the bosom of comfort and security and peace, and some on the wrong side in the bitter woe of fierce remorse and torment.

We find John the Baptist faithful to this great truth. He cries out, 'He that believeth on the Son of God hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on Him.' (John iii. 36.)

Likewise all through the Old Testament this even balance is maintained. 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land; but' and here is the unfailing alternative -- 'but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured by the sword.' (Isaiah i. 16-20.)

These Bible word-pictures show us that no one word, not even the sweet word 'mercy,' will sum up the rich and manifold character of God. The Bible says, 'God is love,' but it also says 'Our God is a consuming fire.'

To penitent hearts who trust in Jesus, God will be found to be rich in mercy; but He will defend the moral and spiritual order of His universe by uttermost penalties against those who go on proudly, careless, or wickedly in their own ways.

When Dr. Johnson lay dying he was much concerned about his soul. A friend said to him : 'Sir, you seem to forget the merits of the Redeemer.' 'No,' replied Dr. Johnson, 'I do not forget the merits of the Redeemer, but I remember that He said that He would place some on His right hand, and some on His left.'

Our only hope is in the wounds of Jesus, and the shelter of His Blood. There, and only there, shall we find mercy, since we have sinned; but there mercy is boundless and free. Hallelujah!



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Mike

 2008/11/13 10:48Profile
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 Re:

Perhaps it is useful to define God's love for the wicked. He can love them through mercy, compassion and pity. That kind of love is very supportable in Scripture. The difficulty I think people have in this area is that they define love in their own way. I think one can be tempted to assume that the Father's love of His son and of the believer is the same love as he has for the wicked and that just can't be substantiated in Scripture. The trap for the unwary is bring their own definitions to the Scriptures instead of the ones God uses.

 2008/11/13 11:07Profile
live4jc
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Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:

If we consider a balanced view of God to be that he is angry with sinners for their rebelliousness, and yet loves them and wants them to repent and be saved, then an important question is, how does such a view apply to our daily lives ? One area which it applies to, is in our approach to evangelism.

When we examine some of the well known evangelists, both of the past and of the present, I can think of some of them which I believe emphasized God's love too much and some which overemphasized his wrath. However many, especially in days gone by, struck a fairly balanced presentation of God's character in their evangelism.

Since the Bible is our guidebook for living and provides us with the wisdom we need for "all things that pertain to life and godliness", it seems to me that by examining the manner in which the gospel was presented by Christ (in the Gospels) and by the apostles (eg in Acts), this should give us the best insight into how God wants us to present His character to lost sinners, in our presentation of the plan of salvation to them.

So, when we examine the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, what conclusions can be drawn about how the gospel was presented ?

In Jesus,
John

 2008/11/13 11:44Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
Definitely we need God to escape His wrath, but more we need Him that we might escape the power and stronghold of sin. Even that is a little bit secondary in light of simply knowing Him.



I have been specifically mulling this point over testing it Scripture against Scripture. And I would make a correction to this statement, if I may.

"we need God to escape His wrath, but more we need ..."

I don't believe there is anything "more" than this, in this regards concerning the unregenerate. Those who are dead in their sins are not commanded to put to death the deeds of the flesh or abstain from the world or resist the devil or put on the full armor of God or any such Christian virtue of faith. They are commanded each and everyone to "repent and believe" and to "flee from the wrath to come." I make this point particulary because it is the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom by the word of God to make one wise unto salvation by faith in Christ Jesus.

The focus then is: fear God who shall cast death, hell, satan, and every unrepentant sinner into the lake of fire. That is to say, the focus of the problem is not necessarily "sin" but the God who hates sin and those who sin. My attempt at this is to put the focus on who God is, first and foremost, before considering who we are in His sight.


Quote:
You first need a savior that you might have life; escaping His wrath is secondary. Just as knowing God is eternal life now, not knowing Him, as I have described, is in comparison, torment now.



Having Jesus as Savior is the only way to escape God's wrath (these are one and the same). If we have believed on Him then we have passed from judgment unto mercy and if we have truly entered into His mercy then we have received the promise and hope of eternal life. Thus, escaping His wrath is not secondary, but to escape His wrath is to enter into His life by the forgiveness of sins.


Quote:
Final thought; if God hates sinners, why did He come to die for them? Why would He not just let everyone perish? He so loved the world that He gave His life for the hope that some would come to know Him.



This very question is the purpose of this thread. Laboring in the word of God with fearfulness and trembling in the sight of God to bring forth wisdom refined in the fire. That we might know Him through His word and rightly balance His love and hate towards us without shame of the consequences to our own preconceived ideas.


Quote:
It is good to remain mindful of the wrath that awaits us if we do not accept Him as savior, but equally, once we have, we need to be mindful of the abundant life that awaits us when we accept Him as Lord.



We must be mindful because not only is there wrath to come but His wrath already abides upon the ungodly ([b]John 3:36[/b]) for they are already condemned by God([b]John 3:18[/b]). This is why this doctrine is so necessary to our evangelism because we must be aware of the condition of the world before a Holy God and be able to give them wisdom unto salvation by faith in Jesus Christ -- as Paul said in his letter to Philemon, "That the communication of your faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus." We must be studied and consumed by the knowledge of every good thing which is in us in Christ Jesus our Lord if we are to have unction in the proclamation of the Gospel.


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Jordan

 2008/11/13 18:05Profile
boG
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Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
When we examine some of the well known evangelists, both of the past and of the present, I can think of some of them which I believe emphasized God's love too much and some which overemphasized his wrath.



This is an important consideration because as A.W. Tozer has said in one sermon, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2310]The Faithfulness of God[/url], "grace has been so preached that is was said of a certain great english preacher, that he preached grace in such a manner as to lower the moral standards of England."

And likewise, we might preach the wrath of God in such a manner as to lose all compassion and sympathy one for another and thereby despise the Law of Christ.


Quote:
If we consider a balanced view of God to be that he is angry with sinners for their rebelliousness, and yet loves them and wants them to repent and be saved, then an important question is, how does such a view apply to our daily lives ?



Excellent question, all of these considerations about the doctrine of God are useless if we cannot reform ourselves to its practical application in our own lives.

I have been wondering to myself, "bless your enemies." Do I have any enemies? There is the "world, the flesh, and the devil" but honestly these are somewhat general and vague. And I thought, "I hate the Beatles. I hate, hate, the Beatles." This might sound irrelevant or missing the point but there is a great deal to learn from this hatred I have for the Beatles.

Why do I hate the band, the Beatles? Because those guys with their handsome young smiling faces and rockin' sound raped the minds of the world, as Ravenhill would say,
"like a man might rape a woman's body." Singing about "peace" and "love" and whatnot while behind the scenes promoting Transcendental Meditation and Eastern Mysticism and promoting the doctrines of Allister Crowley and Anton Levey (the author of the Satanic Bible) with their "Do what thou wilt" (do what you want -- whatever works for you) catch phrases. It angers me! I hate the Beatles. (PS. if you have never seen the documentary "They Sold Their Souls for Rock n Roll" I strongly suggest you do so, check it out on googlevideo).

I truly considered this before the Lord. And I was taken to remember Lamentations. The comparison between lamenting for righteousness and hatred for sin -- the contrast astounds me.

In Lamentations, Jeremiah bitterly cries out because the paths of righteousness are desolate, the roads of Zion are empty, the appointed feasts are despised, the strength of Israel is departed from their midsts! And Jeremiah petitions the Lord with fervency and passion and tears and He cries out with specific details and understanding of the poverty of God's people. And because Jeremiah's soul was grieved before the Lord he knew how to pray and what he must do and say to the children of Israel.

So in this similar way, I hate the Beatles and it grieves me to think of what they did and to see the fruits of their labors taking the hearts and minds of the world into captivity to slavery -- slavery to death. And because I hate them my soul is stirred within me (like Paul in Athens behold the many idols) and it moves me to pray with fervency and with understanding for specific petitions, seeing the works of the devil exposed by the Light of the Truth. In this hate against these sins I can be on guard to keep myself from partaking in their idolatry and warn others from the end of their ways and stand opposed to this demonic culture. The end of this being twofold 1) to protect the church from conforming to the world, and 2) to preach the Gospel without shame in exposing the deeds of the world, that they are evil, and the salvation of Jesus Christ unto the sound conversion of souls.

This is obviously not a full perspective and application of a "perfect hatred" ([b]Psalm 139[/b]) but I believe it should help to get some idea to all of you what I am getting at.


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Jordan

 2008/11/13 18:52Profile





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