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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4517


 Re:

It is difficult to reason that God mentally or emotionally hates mankind (even sinners) due to a nature that we are born with. This is particularly a difficult assumption when we consider the wealth of Scripture from God's own Word regarding His love for us while we were yet sinners:

Quote:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
- John 3:16

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."
- John 15:12-15

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
- Romans 5:8

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
- Romans 8:38-39

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
- II Peter 3:9

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."
-I John 3:16

"And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."
- Luke 9:54-56

"And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"
- Jonah 4:9-11

"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
- Matthew 11:19

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
- I Timothy 1:15

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
- Ephesians 2:4-6

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,"
- Titus 3:3-4



It just seems that the Scriptures CLEARLY indicate that God loves us...even while we were in sin. I suppose that the problem comes from our understanding of the word "hate" used in the passages in question. What does it mean to hate? Is hate the [i]absence[/i] of love...or is it a verb dealing with the [i]dispersion[/i] of judgment? The Word of God seems clear that God's love is extended to all...even while they are yet sinners.





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Christopher

 2008/11/12 11:49Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3546
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 Re:

We need to know all of the attributes of God, and just knowing one aspect of God's character will give us a faulty view of God. Much of the Church is unbalanced in their view of God and much of this is due to the teaching that God is either all mercy or that He is a God of wrath just waiting to pounce on us.

We must see both the goodness and severity of the Lord. Both the Lords great love for us, and His hatred of sin.

The book of Romans is a good book to see both the wrath of God against sin, and His great mercy towards sinners.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:6-10).


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Mike

 2008/11/12 11:51Profile
kyriosity
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Joined: 2008/9/16
Posts: 6
London, UK

 Re:

We were so blessed and encouraged to have brother Greg Gordon and Ely come and preach at our small church in Southall, West London UK. Brother Greg preached from Ezekiel 16 and how were were dead and unable to save ourselves, BUT GOD stepped in.

In regards to the 'God hates sinners' I have been really battling to understand this myself. I've heard many preachers saying 'God hates sinners' and I understand what they are saying and where they are coming from. However I am slightly confused because Ephesians 2 says:

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

I have been praying over these verses to understand the heart of God for sinners. I was slowly moving towards the idea that God hates sinners until I stumbled upon these verses. Can someone share their thoughts as well.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

www.thatimayknowhim.co.uk

Vic Gill


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Vic Gill

 2008/11/12 11:53Profile
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 Re: God hates sin, God hates sinners, & God's love is conditional

I too have been puzzled and challenged, in attempting to reconcile biblical statements about 'God hating sinners' and 'God loving sinners'. The way I've come to grips with the tension between these 2 is to recognize that, yes, God does abhor both the sin and the sinner. He is 'angry with the wicked every day'.

However, if his was only an attitude of being angry with us for our sin, he would not have sent his son to die for us. Therefore, his hatred remains for those who are without Christ (because of their present condition and position), though his hand of love and mercy is extended towards them, through the cross. Then if sinners 'receive not the love of the truth' (2 Thessalonians 2:10) God's wrath abides on them (John 3:36).

Although human comparisons are at best inadequate, I think of how I feel towards my kids sometimes. Sometimes I am extremely upset, no angry with them for their sinful attitudes. (I am not angry with 'the sin', I am angry with 'the kids'). Now, during times when my kids are rebellious etc and I feel angry with them, I am not only angry with them (by God's grace
:-) ). So I discipline them in love, with the aim of seeing them established in righteousness.

In a bible study this past week, our assistant pastor shared this : "If God's love is like a river, then his wisdom and righteousness are like the banks of that river, which guide the flow of that river." It is only as we understand God's great hatred for our sins, our sinfulness, that we can truly comprehend his love for us, in forgiving us of these sins.

In Jesus,
John

 2008/11/12 13:51Profile
boG
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Posts: 349
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 Re: God hates sin, God hates sinners, & God's love is conditional

Excellent verses, thank you for your responses.

Please allow me to make a few points as [b]John 3:16[/b], for instance, is of interest in this.

[b]John 3
16[/b] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
[b]17[/b] For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
[b]18[/b] “He who believes in Him is not condemned; [b]but he who does not believe is [u]condemned already[/u][/b], because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[b]19[/b] And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[b]20[/b] For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
[b]21[/b] But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

(And, if we continue to the end of this third chapter.)

[b]36[/b] He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and [b]he who does not believe the Son [u]shall not see life[/u], [u]but the wrath of God abides[/u] on him[/b].”


Quote:
What does it mean to hate? Is hate the absence of love...?



If "hate" was the absence of "love" would that not mean it were the antithesis of "love" and therefore would be anti-God? And vice versa if we consider love to be the absence of hate.


Quote:
What does it mean to hate? ...or is it a verb dealing with the dispersion of judgment?



Is God's hate simply a legal judgment rather than an emotional or spiritual opposition? I don't believe it is safe to separate God's judgment of sin from His contemning of sin.

[b]Isaiah 59
2.[/b] But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

[b]John 9
31.[/b] "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

And likewise, our sins have brought up a "wall of hostility" between us and God. Not because our sins have overcome God (that would be to wrongly say that darkness has overcome light) but because evil cannot abide in the presence of God ([b]Psalms 5:4[/b], For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee).


Quote:
It just seems that the Scriptures CLEARLY indicate that God loves us...even while we were in sin. [...] The Word of God seems clear that God's love is extended to all...even while they are yet sinners.



And let us not deny this, but let us as specifically as we possibly may study on why He loves sinners and seeks to save them. Does He seek to save us because we are sinners? or does He bring salvation for another reason?

[b]1 John 2
12.[/b] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you [b]for His name's sake[/b].

[b]Ezekiel 36
19.[/b] "Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.
[b]20.[/b] "When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, `These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.'
[b]21.[/b] "[b]But I had concern for My holy name[/b], which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
[b]22.[/b] "Therefore say to the house of Israel, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "[b]It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name[/b], which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
[b]23.[/b] "[b]I will vindicate ([u]sanctify[/u]) the holiness[/b] of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "[b]when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight[/b].
[b]24.[/b] "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
[b]25.[/b] "[u]Then I will sprinkle clean water on you[/u], and you will be clean; [u]I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols[/u].
[b]26.[/b] "Moreover, [u]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you[/u]; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and [u]give you a heart of flesh[/u].
[b]27.[/b] "[u]I will put My Spirit within you[/u] and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
[b]28.[/b] "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; [u]so you will be My people, and I will be your God[/u].
[b]29.[/b] "Moreover, [u]I will save you from all your uncleanness[/u]; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
[b]30.[/b] "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
[b]31.[/b] "[b]Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations[/b].
[b]32.[/b] "[b][u]I am not doing this for your sake[/u][/b]," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"
[b]33.[/b] `Thus says the Lord GOD, "[u]On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities[/u], I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.
[b]34.[/b] "The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by.
[b]35.[/b] "They will say, `This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.'
[b]36.[/b] "Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."
[b]37.[/b] `Thus says the Lord GOD, "[b]This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them[/b]: I will increase their men like a flock.
[b]38.[/b] "Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the LORD.""'

And, I personally directly relate [b]Exekiel 36[/b] to [b]John 17[/b]:

[b]John 17
9.[/b] "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
...
(**Note: Jesus seems to be praying these things on behalf of the elect (however you view predestination) as opposed to simply asking on behalf of the whole world, whom He yet died for. That is to say, not that He did not bring salvation to the whole world but that there shall still be many who enter into the wide gates of hell -- and these prayers are for those who would enter in through the narrow gate of eternal life by faith.)

[b]13.[/b] "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
...
[b]17.[/b] "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
[b]18.[/b] "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
[b]19.[/b] "[b][u]For their sakes[/u] I sanctify Myself[/b], that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
[b]20.[/b] "[b]I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word[/b];
[b]21.[/b] that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
[b]22.[/b] "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
[b]23.[/b] I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, [b]so that the world may know that You sent Me, [u]and loved them[/u], even as You have loved Me[/b].
[b]24.[/b] "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
[b]25.[/b] "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
[b]26.[/b] and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."


The distinction between these two chapters appears to be that in the first, [b]Ezekiel 36[/b], God is speaking directly to sinners (It is not for your sake, I will vindicate (sanctify) the holiness of My great name) and in the second, [b]John 17[/b], God is speaking directly to the redeemed (For their sakes I sanctify Myself).


Quote:
So I discipline them in love, with the aim of seeing them established in righteousness.

In a bible study this past week, our assistant pastor shared this : "If God's love is like a river, then his wisdom and righteousness are like the banks of that river, which guide the flow of that river." It is only as we understand God's great hatred for our sins, our sinfulness, that we can truly comprehend his love for us, in forgiving us of these sins.



Very good point. I have read elsewhere the following:

Quote:
Isn't there a distinction to be drawn between love and reconciliation?
John Stott once defined love as comprising the two ingredients "sacrifice" and "service". Based on this and the verses above, I'd say that God loved me before I was saved.
Despite of this, I still hope that God one day will put things right and destroy everything sinful and evil; If he doesn't hate sin, there can be no heaven.


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Jordan

 2008/11/12 14:19Profile
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 Re:

Question:
God hates the sinner, but loves the world of sinners.
How? Why?

[b]Gen 1:26[/b] [color=990000]And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;[/color]
God loves His own likeness & image because they are perfect and the whole of the trinity hold them.

God loves the sinner because he is made in the image, and according to the likeness of God.

God hates the sinner because he is defaming or has corrupted His image & likeness.

How & why does God love that which He hates?

God wants to redeem His own image & likeness which those He hates have.

 2008/11/12 14:43Profile
AbideinHim
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Posts: 3546
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 Re:

"And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:15-17)


Notice the difference between the reaction of Jesus towards sinners and that of the religious hypocrits.

Jesus said: "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

The Lord would have us to know His great compassion for the lost, to be a minister of reconciliation. We could never do this if we "hate sinners".

Mike


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Mike

 2008/11/12 15:50Profile
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 Re: God hates sin, God hates sinners, & God's love is conditional

Quote:
The Lord would have us to know His great compassion for the lost, to be a minister of reconciliation. We could never do this if we "hate sinners".



This is the very thing I am attempting to debunk.

So that we might properly understand "love" and "hate" according to the nature and testimony of God. As I previously said,

Quote:
If "hate" was the absence of "love" would that not mean it were the antithesis of "love" and therefore would be anti-God? And vice versa if we consider love to be the absence of hate.



Why can we not seek to see sinners converted while hating the fact that they are sinners? If we honestly had "perfect hatred" ([b]Psalm 139[/b]) towards sinners would that by necessity obligate us to shun them or even that we might desire to murder them or have no compassion on them? Or would not hating sinners lead us to sympathize for their pitiful state of wretchedness? for such were we at one time.


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Jordan

 2008/11/12 18:19Profile
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 Re:

I find in the Gospels, and especially Matthew, that Jesus showed 'compassion' to some and 'rage' to others. The rage was toward the religeous leaders who were supposed to be shephards. Instead they were more like wolves who instead, 'harassed'.

Jesus clearly stated that He did not come to condemn the world but that through Him, the world might be saved. He demonstrated this when the woman caught in adultary was brought to Him. 'Where are thine accusers?' 'Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more.'

In John 17 Jesus is praying in the garden. It is the only time in the Bible that records the fact that God/Jesus sweats. If you read closely, you will notice that the sweat was not over the impending suffering, but overshadowing even that, was the longing He had for those who were left behind to know the love He had for them.

It is what He came to show us. He was true to it all the way to the end. I concluded after reading Matthew about a year ago, that He not only came to show His compassion but His rage for the religeous leaders whe were supposed to be doing it but weren't.


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Mike Jones

 2008/11/12 19:26Profile
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 Re:

The Master’s Rage

For years I wondered of the Master’s rage;
the harsh response on Holy page.
Where was compassion that others were shown?
What was the difference? What brought it on?

He had His fill of all He had seen.
The scales were tipped; He would right them again.
He was harsh to the harsh and rightly so.
They would finally reap what they had sewn.

They heaped and harassed so that none could attain,
like wolves in the fold that unsettle and maim.
They offered no mercy, just more and more rules.
They had missed their purpose and in so became fools.

It is in this setting that the master comes
with compassion for many, yet outrage toward some.
There wasn’t a struggle with how to react;
He had seen it for years and came to attack.

It would cost Him His life, but oh what it bought;
there was peace for His sheep and hope for the lost.
Help us oh Lord to be careful with rules.
Let mercy and kindness be our choice of tools.

MJ


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Mike Jones

 2008/11/12 19:30Profile





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