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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Chris wrote:


Quote:
Is there a problem with trading with the rest of the world? World trade, so to speak, has existed long before anyone discovered the western world. In fact, one could argue that the desire for world trade (in particular, safe routes to Indian and Chinese spices) was the reason Christopher Columbus sailed in the first place




Have you studied the Scriptures that have been posted in this thread? Have you studied Isaiah 23, Ezekiel 26, 27, 28, Revelation 17, 18 and the book of Daniel? These are some of the Scriptures this thread is covering....

What do the Scriptures say about "world trade" in relation to the harlot?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/11/15 7:04Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re: Some thoughts to deeply consider

Quote:
I understand that God will allow "Babylon the Great" to be destroyed. But do you suppose that God will allow this solely as a judgment against trade? Or is the "trade" part just a by-product of the destruction of that place?



I think a simple answer is that God will ultimately deal with the world [i]itself[/i] (that includes its participants) that has set itself up to [i]exist[/i] (sustain itself) and find its [i]fulfillment[/i] [u]independent of Him[/u].

Man has been attempting since the beginning to build a city that does not include God or 'need' God. A system that can take His creation and the various laws in which it works and build itself a life [i]apart[/i] from Him; to utilize the creation to ignore, deny and rebel against their Creator.

'World' trade has certainly always existed, but so has world communication. The question is, do we see an increase in the proficiency of communication (and trade). I think the answer is a resounding 'yes'. We are moving swiftly towards Genesis 11:

[color=000066]
And the LORD came down to see the city and [u]the tower[/u], which the children of men builded.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: [u]and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.[/u]

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Gen 11:8 So [u]LORD scattered them abroad[/u] from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. [/color]

They 'left off' to build something that God knew was a threat to His original design for man. His design was fellowship, but a 'city' would serve to lock men into the system that we see today that is making it more and more difficult every day to see men and women come to repentance. There is something about the 'world' that is growing stronger and stronger by the minute. Easier and more convenient to 'trust' and more and more proficient at serving mans base desires.

I submit that this is why the world is plunging more and more into darkness. We need to recognize the power that the world is drawing to itself. We need to see that Babylon is rising and the thing that God sought to prevent in Genesis 11 is [u]rising[/u]. Our evangelism efforts are becoming more challenging because the world is taking a greater and greater hold of the minds and hearts of people than it ever has before. this is one of the most sobering realities we can possibly ponder right now and it behooves us to seek God for a solution. God bless all those men and women of God that have gone before us, but we need a fresh word from God in our times to deal with [u]our situation[/u]. I dare say even the old timers would be utterly staggered by the growing [b]strength[/b] the world wields upon the minds of man in 2008. It is accelerating its draw upon minds and hearts.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/15 9:32Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
but so has world communication. The question is, do we see an increase in the proficiency of communication (and trade). I think the answer is a resounding 'yes'. We are moving swiftly towards Genesis 11:



On Thursday a friend and I went to a neighboring college town to visit an Indian lady that became a Christian this summer. She also had another Indian lady, Vijitha, living with her. She spoke English with very little accent - by southern standards! ;-) and she has been in the states only three years! This sparked a conversation about the English language, how it is spoken universally. She said one could go to India, not know the native language and get around quite well just knowing English!

Then, then - my mind went to the verses Robert shared:
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one anther's speech.

Gen 11:8 So LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Now I wonder whether the wide spread knowledge of English will be used to facilitate this whole scenario of one-world government and trade (which is already happening). Vijitha said knowledge of English is essential to getting around in the business world...

Made me shudder a tad bit...felt like I was seeing the fulfillment of prophecy right before my eyes!

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/11/15 9:59Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi rookie...

Quote:
Have you studied the Scriptures that have been posted in this thread? Have you studied Isaiah 23, Ezekiel 26, 27, 28, Revelation 17, 18 and the book of Daniel? These are some of the Scriptures this thread is covering....

Yes, I have read these passages (even before I read this thread).
Quote:
What do the Scriptures say about "world trade" in relation to the harlot?

But this isn't an answer to my question. We know that the "Babylon the great" was a center for trade. But is trade in and of itself evil?

If you think that it is, I would suggest removing ANYTHING that was purchased that is even remotely tied to world trade. In today's society, that includes most cars (even portions of many "American" cars), computers, clothing, shoes, socks, food, gasoline, household goods, and even paper.

My point is this: Trade is probably NOT the reason that the great whore will be destroyed. In fact, trade is not even evil in and of itself.

One brother put it well: [i]As long as we are speculating...[/i] Much of the teaching on Bible prophecy is, at best, speculation. It might be EDUCATED speculation (and even speculation that comes from prayer). Nevertheless, it is speculation. In many of today's churches, we have people who preach such speculation (and other assumptions) as doctrinal fact (i.e., Jesus went to Hell after death; there are TWO judgment days; etc...). Teachers hear something that sounds quite plausible, and then they teach it as if it is undeniable. The problem with theories about the identity of Babylon the Great is that many teachings simply disagree with other teachings. Is Babylon America (or New York, Rome, London, San Francisco, a corrupt religious system, a corrupt confederation of governments, etc...)? I think we should teach the possibilities...but we might be good to hesitate before proclaiming anything definitive.

Anyway, I am sure that you guys already agree with this, so I am probably "preaching to the choir."

;-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/11/15 10:49Profile









 Re:

Brother Robert writes........

"Our evangelism efforts are becoming more challenging because the world is taking a greater and greater hold of the minds and hearts of people than it ever has before. this is one of the most sobering realities we can possibly ponder right now and it behooves us to seek God for a solution. God bless all those men and women of God that have gone before us, but we need a fresh word from God in our times to deal with our situation. I dare say even the old timers would be utterly staggered by the growing strength the world wields upon the minds of man in 2008. It is accelerating its draw upon minds and hearts."

I tend to agree wholeheartedly with that. The only thing I may differ in is the fact that we "need a solution." I am not sure there is a solution. We are moving, ever closer, to the point of tribulation.

I like brother Comptons points as well. Especially the point about not taking himself to seriously :-) None of us really know how it is going to end and if we are in Christ ultimately it will not matter anyway. So, in that light, I believe that America could well be the "revived Roman Empire." This country was basically founded by Europeans and established. Then, we have all the ties to Europe that has already been mentioned. And finally we have a Roman form of Government, Senate and Senators and all :) We are sold out to the Greek notion of Democracy, so much so that it is used to defend war.

On a side note, as a man born and raised in Scotland(but now born of the Kingdom and a citizen of an other country) Scotland was never part of the old Roman Empire. Perhaps that is why we will see revival start here, a revival to prepare the Body for what is to come? .........Frank

 2008/11/15 11:41
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

I have often thought about how God slowed the progress of evil by several measures in the book of Genesis almost all of which we have [u]now[/u] overcome or are very close to overcoming.

1) Man would work by the sweat of his face and eat bread instead of (primarily) fruit. This meant that man would have to till the soil and plant crops in order to eat. This is a lot more time consuming and labor intensive than eating of the fruit of the trees of the garden of Eden. This measure effectively forced man to redeem the time- for mere survival.

[color=000066] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3)[/color]

2) Woman would suffer in childbearing. This added a sense of suffering as well as concern for child birth. This brought tremendous sobriety to life during the term of a pregnancy.

[color=000066]Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3)[/color]

3) God placed the earth in a state of 'inutility'. No longer would it function as it once did. The earth would become a dangerous place filled with hazards and unexpected calamities. This is part of the 'cursed' is the ground for thy sake thing. Life would now be filled with pain and suffering. This should serve the purpose of sobering the mind and bringing a conscious dependence on God for safety and provision.

4) Man's life spans were reduced to 120 years. A graphical chart before and after the great flood prove this point. Life spans dropped dramatically over the next 1000 years. This did two things:

a. It limited man's ability to reach his/her potential for evil. The number of years shaved from life reduced the ability of fallen man to utilize his/her mental abilities for an additional 700 years with all of those years of experimental and experiential evil to build upon.

b. It brought about a sense that life is short. Death came front and center into the minds of men. Couple this fact with the various hazards of life and man 'should' have been moved to rely upon God for mere survival with an eye on eternity.

5. God scattered the people and confounded the languages. Language has been a problem for thousands of years. But communication is unprecedented in our times and none would have ever imagined what level of communication we would someday reach. It simply did not exist- not even in the imaginations of men.


Based upon just the 5 items (and we could name several more), in what ways can you see that man has overcome these 'roadblocks' to evil?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/15 14:37Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Robert...a side note...you wrote

"I had a thought today I have not had before. You will notice that the world is described as the:

1) The lust of the flesh (pleasure)
2) lust of the eyes (possessions)
3) pride of life (popularity)"


I was thinking about this this weekend...man is described as a three part being; body, soul, and spirit.

Is there a connection between how Satan temps man, and man's three part nature?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/11/17 12:29Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Chris wrote:

Quote:
But this isn't an answer to my question. We know that the "Babylon the great" was a center for trade. But is trade in and of itself evil?



I am sorry that I did not answer more clearly by what I wrote...

The Scriptures are given to us so that we might recognize or decern between what is good and what is evil.

Trade in itself does not imply evil. With that said, those who give their life to the 'harlot' will learn "iniquity and violence" by their participation in it. The activity of "trading" opens one up to the devices of Satan. Scripture teaches this very clearly in these verses...

Rev 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, [fn] "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

Rev 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."


The kings committed "fornication" with the harlot. The "wine" of that fornication made the inhabitants drunk.

Now this "fornication" took place in Genesis 11. We also know that this "fornication" took place, according to Scripture during the time that Tyre rose up above the nations of earth becoming the center of this world trade activity. (Isaiah 23, Ezekiel 26,27,and 28)

Then we also have the book of Daniel and Revelation to feed on. Here we are given yet another description of the activity of "world trade," the building of cities, the prosperity of the inhabitants.

Satan took Jesus up to a high place above the kingdoms of earth and tempted Him, saying...All of this can be yours if you bow down to me....

The Scriptures are sufficient. They are given to enable us to recognize or discern the good and evil in "our own time."

In terms of "speculation" Jesus tells us to be watchful. He says that we will be able to see the fruit of the fig tree ripening....

Well today I see that the U.S. is the center of the "world trade" in debt. This debt is based on nothing but the "confidence" of those who have faith in this world system. I see the world is losing confidence in this contemporary system of "usury." I know that the world is convulsing due to the failure of this "world trade in debt."

The precepts in Scripture truly do enable us to see the violence, iniquity, and hoplessness of this system. Yet for those who drink the wine of the fornication created by the kings of today with the harlot, they will stumble in darkness, being frightened, dismayed. They will be used by the kings of this world, to secure the kings preemininence above other men. Nimrod was a hunter of men, Satan goes about like a roaring lion seeking those whom he may devour.

Sorry for the rant..

God Bless
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/11/17 13:04Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Getting back to the city of Tyre we find this...

Eze 27:10 "Those from Persia, Lydia, [fn] and Libya [fn] Were in your army as men of war; They hung shield and helmet in you; They gave splendor to you.

Eze 27:11 Men of Arvad with your army [were] on your walls [all] around, And the men of Gammad were in your towers; They hung their shields on your walls [all] around; They made your beauty perfect.


How does the army accomplish this..."They gave splendor to you"..."They made your beauty perfect"...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/11/17 13:12Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Here is another example of how armies will be used in the end days...

Dan. 11:9 “Also the king of the North shall come to the kingdom of the king of the South, but shall return to his own land. 10 However his sons shall stir up strife, and assemble a multitude of great forces; and one shall certainly come and overwhelm and pass through; then he shall return to his fortress and stir up strife.

Dan. 11:11 “And the king of the South shall be moved with rage, and go out and fight with him, with the king of the North, who shall muster a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into the hand of his enemy. 12 When he has taken away the multitude, his heart will be lifted up; and he will cast down tens of thousands, but he will not prevail. 13 For the king of the North will return and muster a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come at the end of some years with a great army and much equipment.

Dan. 11:14 “Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South. Also, violent men of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall. 15 So the king of the North shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city; and the forces of the South shall not withstand him. Even his choice troops shall have no strength to resist. 16 But he who comes against him shall do according to his own will, and no one shall stand against him. He shall stand in the Glorious Land with destruction in his power.


Do you see that the masses of men will be led to drink the wine that is created by the fornication of the kings with the harlot. Men will be drunk with the wine. Violence and deception will permeate this age.

Read the last few chapters of Daniel. Pay attention to the length of time that this age will cover. Pay attention to the spoils of war. Pay attention to who is responsible for stirring up the nations of the world. And look for the overwhelming nature of Satan being manifested in the kings of this world...

This age will last for longer than many seem to expect...
In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/11/18 20:42Profile





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