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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

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boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
The bible says God actively hardened Pharaoh and other sinners hearts in some way [...] Whether we understand it or not, God is somehow capable of bringing about sins without being in ANY way guilty or approving of sin.



The bible doesn't say God "actively hardened" Pharaoh's and other sinner's hearts. It does say He "hardened" his heart but it likewise says Pharaoh sinned against the Lord and hardened his own heart.

Are you aware that debunking this very thing, "Equal Ultimacy," was the beginning purpose of this thread? This is interesting, now I am very curious. Please, explain the context of [b]Romans 9[/b], as I asked earlier, and please explain how what you are saying is either not "Equal Ultimacy" or why "Equal Ultimacy" is not erroneous heresy (as the video from the first post said).


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/13 0:54Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2028


 Re: the evil that men do

boG asks, "Tell me, how do you explain that God is not the Author of Sin by your understandings?"

David says,"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is set on high; I am not able to reach it."(Psalm 139:6,In its context it is applicable)

I believe from the Word of God that that God of the Word is The Absolute Sovereign,and that that Truth is by revelation of the God of Truth.

"No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matt. 11:27).

"And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven." (Matt.16:17)

"For He spoke, and it came into being; He commanded, and it stood fast. Jehovah voids the counsel of the nations, He frustrates the thoughts of the peoples. Jehovah's counsel stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah, the people He has elected for His inheritance. Jehovah looks down from Heaven; He sees all the sons of mankind. From His dwellingplace He looks on all the ones living in the earth. He forms the heart; He understands all their works." (Psalm 33:9-15)

"And the prophet, if he is deceived, and he speaks a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet. And I will stretch out My hand on him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel." (Ezek. 14:9)

"And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, and he shall go up and fall in Ramoth-gilead? And this one said this, and this one said that. And a spirit came forth and stood before Jehovah, and said, I surely will entice him. And Jehovah said to him, By what means? And he said, I will go out and shall be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him, and also you are able. Go out and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and Jehovah has spoken evil as to you!"
(1 Kings 22:20-23)

"If a ram's horn is blowing in a city, will the people not also tremble? If there is a calamity in a city, has Jehovah not even done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"For My servant Jacob's sake, and for Israel My elect, I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.(Isa. 45:4-7)

"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"(Lam. 3:38)

"O LORD, why do you make us err from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?" (Isa. 63:17).

Contrariwise,mere human reason and logic("knowledge so-called")are philosophy,and man by nature is philosophical and obsessed therewith.

This philosophical creature(man)would make God like unto himself, a learner and a reactor, rather than worship Him as Creator,Sustainer,and Governor.

 2008/11/13 1:32Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestination is not election to heaven or hell.

Predestination is that those that are elect be in Christ.

All mankind have made their choice to hell, there not one that seeks God, no not one.

But God wants sons' out of His Creation and He chooses those that He pleases to give to the Son, with no respect of persons, that they might be son's of God who trusted in Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit. God's elect, those whom the Father gives to Jesus Christ for salvation, predestinated to be In Christ before the foundation of the World. God never ment for any person to be outside of The Christ in those God elected to be the Son's inheritance for His obedience.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

How are we glorified? What is our glory? Who is our glory? It is only One Person, Jesus Christ who is born again in the believer and elect of God.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the election working in us mightily.

No where does it say that God predestinated some to heaven and some to hell, There is no double predestination, there is no single predestination except that those that are the elect be in Christ Jesus, even before the world began.

This is exactly what scripture says;

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

In Christ, elect of God, chosen and predestinated to be conformed to the Image of The Son Jesus Christ Himself in us, who is our only Glory.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/11/13 5:49Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Phillip ans Savannah, thank you, both of those posts were clear.

I would only comment on the sentence,

"No where does it say that God predestinated some to heaven and some to hell, There is no double predestination, there is no single predestination except that those that are the elect be in Christ Jesus, even before the world began."

Only in the sense that some are "passed over", that is, not included in the elect by virtue of God's sovereign choice not to demonstrate regenerating grace on them, is it true that there is what some call "double predestination". In other words, because God has not determined to bring them, in Christ, to faith, they were from before time marked out for one thing - to willfully rebel and receive such wages as are fitting.

O, praise God that we should be spared!


"Amazing Grace"

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That sav’d a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.

John New­ton, Ol­ney Hymns (Lon­don: W. Ol­i­ver, 1779)

 2008/11/13 6:23Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Can't we all just admit that there is a group of people in Scripture called "the elect"?

However, there are to kinds of election.
Corporate election, which is not unto eternal life, but is to bring about a liniage for His SEED, a holy remenant, the true Israel of God.

And personal election is is unto eternal life.

Quote:
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Now pay close attention to the language used here. It does not say, "that which He foreknew", as to indicate that God saw a future faith in them and elected them because of that faith.

Rather it says, "those whom He foreknew" to show that there were people whom God foreknew or knew before.

"those whom He foreknew" as to indicate that God saw a future faith in them, but that God knew beforehand them so very well, He knew that they would respond in a positive manner.

If not, what was that foreknowdge?
Was it knowing beforehand what he would do?
Or knowing beforehand whom He would choose?

Quote:
Now these people were "predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ". But it is only these people, and they will be called, and they will be justified, and they will be glorified.

Since all mankind are equally hellbound, How does God choose those whom He will save?

If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He choses which are as equal as those He does not choose.

Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?

Quote:
Clearly, the "vessels of mercy" are "called" from all people.

This mentioning of "vessels" in 2 Timothy actually shows this thought as well.

In 2 Timothy, the word "vessels" is used here-

2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

But this discussion is about false teachers(Hymenaeus and Philetus v.17): those who have "swerved from the truth" and are upsetting the "faith of some".

Paul then tells young Timothy, " But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2Ti 2:19, and then begins to show that there are differing vessels in a large house, which is similar to the Lord's words about wheat and tares growing together.

The point here is that there will be false teachers who are vessels of dishonor among the Church.

In both Romans 9 & 2Tim 2, both vessels of dishonor/wrath were fitted/reformed from vessels of honor/mercy because of disobedience to the truth & God's commands.
Therefore, all vessels of dishonor/wrath are able to repent they will be vessels of honor/mercy, just as Israel was restored after being captive to Babylon.
The first return to Judah for the Jews came shortly after the Persian conquest of Babylon, 538 BC (Ezra 1:1), led by Sheshbazzar. The second came 80 years later, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes I, 458 BC (Ezra 7:7), led by Ezra. And the third came 13 years after the second, in the 20th year of Arta­xerxes I, 444 BC (Neh. 2:1), led by Nehemiah.
THE SECOND RETURN (Ezra 7-10)
THE THIRD RETURN, full restoration (Nehemiah 1-13)

 2008/11/13 9:15Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2028


 Re: same subject

I found these links below on SI to be helpful which address this subject to some degree:


http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=23460&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24282&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go

Many of the same questions on this thread are given some very insightfully biblical answers.


The gainsayers are refuted as the scriptures command ought to be done.

 2008/11/13 10:03Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
theopenlife wrote:

"No where does it say that God predestinated some to heaven and some to hell, There is no double predestination, there is no single predestination except that those that are the elect be in Christ Jesus, even before the world began."

Only in the sense that some are "passed over", that is, not included in the elect by virtue of God's sovereign choice not to demonstrate regenerating grace on them, is it true that there is what some call "double predestination". In other words, because God has not determined to bring them, in Christ, to faith, they were from before time marked out for one thing - to willfully rebel and receive such wages as are fitting.

Notice that you said, "willfully", as in unwilling to accept Christ.

However, you think that makes them unable.
Unwillingness is not inability.
Whch is it, unwillingness or inability?

Don't say that the unwillingness makes the inability, because one may be persuaded if unwilling, but one cannot ve persuaded from an inability.

 2008/11/13 11:07Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:

All mankind have made their choice to hell, there not one that seeks God, no not one.

However, there are them that seel for truth, and find Christ in the process.

Quote:
But God wants sons' out of His Creation and He chooses those that He pleases to give to the Son, with no respect of persons,

Right there is the kicker!
One must understand since all mankind are equally hell bound, How does God choose those whom He will save?

If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He chooses which are as equal as those He does not choose.

Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?

Quote:
How are we glorified? What is our glory? Who is our glory? It is only One Person, Jesus Christ who is born again in the believer and elect of God.
This is the election working in us mightily.

Election doesn't "work in us", just as Christ is not the election.

 2008/11/13 11:11Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
savannah wrote:
boG asks, "Tell me, how do you explain that God is not the Author of Sin by your understandings?"

If I may add to this; God never causes moral evil.
When God says that He causes evil, it is social evil, as in war, drought...ect...

Quote:
"And the prophet, if he is deceived, and he speaks a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet. And I will stretch out My hand on him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel." (Ezek. 14:9)


[b]2Thes 2:11[/b] [color=990000]And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[b]:12[/b] That they all might be condemned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/color]
Do to suppose that there was any influence on the part of God in causing this delusion to come upon them, but that answered the prophet as an Idol would.
Idols are actually nothing at all but the wood they are made of. Therefore, God withdrew all restraint, and suffered the prophet and the men their own delusions which come from their vain imaginations to show that they did not love the truth.
God often places people in circumstances to develop their own nature, weather godly or sinful.
If people have no love of the truth, and no desire to be saved, it is not improper that they should be allowed to their own vices & destruction.

Quote:
"And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, and he shall go up and fall in Ramoth-gilead? And this one said this, and this one said that. And a spirit came forth and stood before Jehovah, and said, I surely will entice him. And Jehovah said to him, By what means? And he said, I will go out and shall be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him, and also you are able. Go out and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and Jehovah has spoken evil as to you!"

As you know, God did not cause the deception, but had it happen out of judgment.

Quote:
"If a ram's horn is blowing in a city, will the people not also tremble? If there is a calamity in a city, has Jehovah not even done it?" (Amos 3:6)

There is no moral evil (sin) here.

Quote:
"For My servant Jacob's sake, and for Israel My elect, I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.(Isa. 45:4-7)

God does not create moral evil which is sin. The evil which God creates are the evils which come out of His judgments of sin.
By creating darkness, all God does is bring to light that which is truly dark by nature.

Quote:
"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?"(Lam. 3:38)

Blessings & curses of judgment come from God.
The judgment is brought about by the sinner himself.

Quote:
"O LORD, why do you make us err from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?" (Isa. 63:17).

God gives people over to their own ways out of judgment.
People will harden their own heart because of fear.
One might say that someone harden another’s heart by offence, while in reality, they hardened their own heart.
That is what's being said hear, they say that God hardened their heart, when in reality, the did because they were afraid of God's anger.
Sinners sometimes bring about the opposite fruit that is expected.

 2008/11/13 11:21Profile









 Re: Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

Predestination is according to God's foreknowledge.

Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ according to free will.

There are a lot of opposing passages in scripture which will help the faithful to seek the wisdom in Christ but those who refuse to do this will be ensnared by having shown partiality toward themselves in latching onto one half of the scripture. Then when they are unable to refute the strength of the other half of the scripture they will be forced to carve and whittle away at their lump of half-doctrines and twisted scriptures until they have formed a remarkable idol that unsteady souls will find entrancing.

This has been my experience. I believe this to be the case with the papacy, and with most of the "reformed" theology I've heard about. There is one true faith and all sects go astray whether Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist, Jehovah's Witness, Mennonite, Amish, Baptist, Non-Denominational, Anabaptist, Friends, etc. There is only one faith and those who adhere to any false and divisive sect consent to division and deny the wholeness of Christ.

 2008/11/13 11:26





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