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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

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sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

My previous post proves the point...these things gender towards factionism

One man who was a proven false prophet - once ran out of steam and things to write and say in forum discussions having not posted anything of substance for a long time...

So you know what he did?

He tried to kick start the old calvinistic debate by throwing out a one line sentence - TO THE FORUM OF " what do you think OF the calvinistic debate AND WHERE DO YA ALL STAND ON THIS?" ETC ETC

YAWN ! Ive personally never entered into the debate and have no desire too...these things paul warned will increase unto more ungodliness and even perverse disputings! My advice avoid like the plague....my advice run for your life and get right away from fruitless arguments


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2008/11/12 18:54Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
You criminalise God by this theory. God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for. How do you defend this?

Logic, I respond the same way the holy Apostle Paul did.

[b]You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”[/b] But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:19-20)

Friend, do you realize that Paul is answering the very question you just asked me?

You mis-interpret that verse.
No, Paul was not answering my question.

[b]Rom 9:19[/b] [color=990000]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his intention?[/color]
For who has resisted God's intention?

Pharaoh hardened his heart as he resisted God & denied HIS sovereignty.
If God's intention was to use us the hardeness of pharaoh's heart, who can resist His intention?
However, Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to; same goes for all of creation.

[b]Rom 9:20[/b] [color=990000]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/color]
Why did You make me like this?

The answer is; you made yourself like that.

God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways & you took the offer, so God used that instead for HIS purpose.
So, quite your belly aikin' and do what you're supposed to do, REPENT
-------------------------------------------------
Paul would never leave an important question that needs to be answered open like that.

What you think Paul was saing in those verses is equivelent to saying:
"God is God and He can do anything He wants, even things that are unjustifiable. You have no right to ask God such things."

You therefore must explain how this unjustice by God is done.
How do you defend this?
God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

Another thing that must be explained is:
IF Faith is a gift, then God is directly responcible for the faithlessness of the world.

God does not cover up inconsistencies, we must not either.

 2008/11/12 19:02Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Thank you for responding.

It seems your interpretation of the verses may not take into account v.21, which states that it is the potter who made the clay either for honor or dishonor, yet, you seem to imply that the clay made the clay for honor or dishonor.

Grace to you.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/12 19:12Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

sonofthunder wrote:
My previous post proves the point...these things gender towards factionism

One man who was a proven false prophet - once ran out of steam and things to write and say in forum discussions having not posted anything of substance for a long time...

So you know what he did?

He tried to kick start the old calvinistic debate by throwing out a one line sentence - TO THE FORUM OF " what do you think OF the calvinistic debate AND WHERE DO YA ALL STAND ON THIS?" ETC ETC

YAWN ! Ive personally never entered into the debate and have no desire too...these things paul warned will increase unto more ungodliness and even perverse disputings! My advice avoid like the plague....my advice run for your life and get right away from fruitless arguments

Sorry, but if you don't like this, then stop reading and go to other threads.

I am not trying to make factions, they already exist.
I am only intrested in how the people who hold these theories defend them, how do they explain the inconsistencies of their theology.
How they justify the injustices which their theology puts on God.
I want to show people the logical conclusion to there theology.

 2008/11/12 19:13Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Thank you for responding.

It seems your interpretation of the verses may not take into account v.21, which states that it is the potter who made the clay either for honor or dishonor, yet, you seem to imply that the clay made the clay for honor or dishonor.

Grace to you.

What I menat by:
Why did You make me like this?

The answer is; you made yourself like that.

Is that you are the one who sinned and responcible for your judgment.
Your judgment is that I(God) will now make you a vessle of wrath.

[b]21:[/b] [color=990000]Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?[/color] Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specifically for wrath.

The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but uses the same & makes a new vessel out of it.
The Potter did not mar the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.
Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.
See notes on next verse for proof of this.

[b]22:[/b] [color=990000]But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction[/color]
Fitted to destruction:
Reformed from a vessel of honor to be a vessel of dishonor.
See notes on Romans 9:21
2 Timothy 2:20-21
Ephesians 2:3
God loves all His creation even those who hate him, that is why God endured in much long-suffering with them. 1Corinth 13:7, "charity (love) bears all things (is patient)


[b]23:[/b] [color=990000]and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,[/color]
What if by showing such longsuffering even to "the vessels of wrath," by contrast to them, God shows abundantly the greatness of his glorious goodness, wisdom, and power on the vessels of mercy; on those whom he had himself, by his grace, prepared for glory. Is this any injustice?

 2008/11/12 19:18Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Quote, "I am only intrested in how the people who hold these theories defend them, how do they explain the inconsistencies of their theology."

Logic, with that I can agree!

Son of Thunder wrote,

"My previous post proves the point...these things gender towards factionism."

The pursuit of truth will always cause disagreements, but it is sin, not discussion itself, which nurtures factions. It is good to dispute, provided we do so under the moderation of love at all times. Whatsoever we do, including "contending for the faith" (as we understand it), is to be done unto the Lord.

As for "truth lies between two extremes" I respond that so-called Calvinism falls perfectly between atheism and animistic fatalism.

Hyper-Calvinism, by the way, is not Supralapsarianism or "double-predestination". It is the denial that the gospel can or should be offered to those who do not show signs of being amongst the elect. It is also frequently associated with a denial of the use of means in bringing people to salvation. Anyone who has read the Institutes has seen candidly that Calvin was not "Hyper-Calvinist".

 2008/11/12 19:29Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

Can't we all just admit that there is a group of people in Scripture called "the elect"?

These people were foreknown by God-
Rom 8:29 For [b]those whom he foreknew[/b] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Now pay close attention to the language used here. It does not say, "that which He foreknew", as to indicate that God saw a future faith in them and elected them because of that faith.

Rather it says, "those whom He foreknew" to show that there were people whom God foreknew or knew before.

Now these people were "predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ". But it is only these people, and they will be called, and they will be justified, and they will be glorified.

There's no way around that.

As for Romans 9 and its mentioning of vessels, Paul makes a very distinct point towards the end of the chapter about who the vessels are-
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience [b]vessels of wrath prepared for destruction[/b],
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for [b]vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory[/b]--

Now pay attention to the next verse as it shows that these are not "nations" being talked about, but instead "people".

Rom 9:24 even [b]us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?[/b]

Clearly, the "vessels of mercy" are "called" from all people.

This mentioning of "vessels" in 2 Timothy actually shows this thought as well.

In 2 Timothy, the word "vessels" is used here-
2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

But this discussion is about false teachers(Hymenaeus and Philetus v.17): those who have "swerved from the truth" and are upsetting the "faith of some".

Paul then tells young Timothy, " But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2Ti 2:19, and then begins to show that there are differing vessels in a large house, which is similar to the Lord's words about wheat and tares growing together.

The point here is that there will be false teachers who are vessels of dishonor among the Church.

Hopefully we can look at context in this discussion and let our minds be governed by Scripture and not emotion.


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patrick heaviside

 2008/11/12 20:42Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

Quote:
The pursuit of truth will always cause disagreements, but it is sin, not discussion itself, which nurtures factions. It is good to dispute, provided we do so under the moderation of love at all times. Whatsoever we do, including "contending for the faith" (as we understand it), is to be done unto the Lord.



Indeed, brother. The truth is too important to keep our hands off of it like sonofthunder is suggesting. So long as there are discussions among the brethren truth shall be found (those who seek the Lord do not seek Him in vain), however, when the discussions cease truth shall lie fallen in the streets.

Quote:
We all deserve hell. Really understanding that would help much in this discussion. All of us, including everyone in this thread deserves infinite hell. It is no injustice if God chooses to save some, when it is just for Him to save none.



No one here disagrees with you. This is not a debate concerning whether we deserve hell or not. I would recommend you gentlemen to please go back on this thread and read my post concerning [b]Romans 9[/b] (http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25776&forum=36&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=1). If you are wondering which post it is; it is the one that takes up half the page. :-P

By the way, speaking of [b]Romans 9:21[/b], that verse also directly refutes "passive hardening" because "the Potter has power over the clay" and He is actively "fitting them to destruction." I was reading in my Strong's Concordance and it had this commentary concerning the word "fitted": "It indicates the close relationship between character and destiny, Rom 9:22, 'fitted', where the middle voice signifies that those referred to 'fitted' themselves for destruction, as illustrated in the case of Pharaoh, who self-hardened his own heart." (There you have it, its in the Strong's! I am kidding!)

[b]Tell me, how do you explain that God is not the Author of Sin by your understandings?[/b] Please, explain to us the context, as I explained in that previous post, the sin of Pharoah hardening his heart against the Lord and the sin of Jacob, the supplanter, being ordered together by Paul to contextually explain this mystery he describes as "the Potter who has power over the clay" and "therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."


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Jordan

 2008/11/12 21:02Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

boG,

I am going to bed, but here is the most simple way to explain the question you posed:

1.) The bible says God is neither the author of sins, nor is he tempted to sin. He is perfectly righteous, not merely because he says so, but because he truly is.

2.) The bible says God actively hardened Pharaoh and other sinners hearts in some way, bringing them to more fully offend Him. He ORDAINED the death of Christ at the hand of murderers, and it was brought to pass in a very specific way, not simply by an accident God foresaw.

Therefore:

Whether we understand it or not, God is somehow capable of bringing about sins without being in ANY way guilty or approving of sin.

So, in conclusion, I have not offered a positive answer, but I have given the reasoning that underlies my confidence of there being one.

 2008/11/12 23:11Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Romans 8:28-39.--Therefore we know that to those who love God all things work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose. We can rest in God and commit all to Him. The purpose of God for His own, from eternity to eternity is blessedly revealed. "From God's foreknowledge of us in the past eternity to the accomplished glory of the future, there is a perfectly linked chain of blessing, no link of which can ever be sundered. God's purpose is that Christ His Son, should be a First-born among many brethren" (Numerical Bible). And the chain of blessing is--foreknown -- predestinated -- called -- justified and glorified. We do not enter into the controversies of the past concerning predestination, but repudiate that unscriptural conception that God has predestinated a part of the human race to be lost. This is incorrect in view of the statement of Scripture that God "will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1Ti 2:4). But all are not saved because they believe not. (Foreknowledge expresses the original operation of the Divine mind, considered with reference to the pure and unapproachable majesty of the blessed and only Potentate. Predestination respects rather the condition of that which is thus foreknown, objectively regarded as a vessel of His will."--Pridham.) God knows all who would believe and these are predestinated, called, justified and Will be ultimately glorified. And His eternal purpose will not fail and all who are in Christ will be conformed to the image of His Son. This is the Hope of God's calling (Eph 1:18).
--Gaebelein's Annoted Bible

This understanding does not violate the Word of God taken in the context of it's author the Holy Spirit. I had rather stand before God in the judgment with this understanding believing that everybody I witness to, can be saved. Than to stand before God believing that he was not willing to save some of His creation.

 2008/11/12 23:22Profile





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