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rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Rbanks,

Conviction is a work of God the Holy Spirit, as taught by our Lord in John 16.

No sinner would ever be convicted were it not for a sovereign work of the Spirit.

Ultimately, friends, at the end of the day, the opposers to this have God responding to some merit in man (conviction, sorrow, etc.), whereas I firmly believe the Scriptures that it is not of human will or exertion (Romans 9:16), but on God who shows mercy - free and pure.

O Lord, vindicate thy name!

Grace to you.



[Conviction is a work of God the Holy Spirit, as taught by our Lord in John 16.

No sinner would ever be convicted were it not for a sovereign work of the Spirit.]

This is true brother Taylor, conviction is a work of the Holy Spirit but it precedes regeneration.

Then you jump the gun and run wild with this!

[Ultimately, friends, at the end of the day, the opposers to this have God responding to some merit in man (conviction, sorrow, etc.), whereas I firmly believe the Scriptures that it is not of human will or exertion (Romans 9:16), but on God who shows mercy - free and pure.]

Their is no merit achieved by man but man has been given responsibility to accept or reject God's grace. God does not force people to love Him. We love Him because he first loved us!

God does not take away our will and make us robots or a puppet on a string. He wants us to have a loving relationship with Him in all humility. Knowing that we deserved hell but by his grace and mercy He saved us from our sins, we are forever grateful.

 2008/10/29 8:59Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

rbanks,

Quote:
This is true brother Taylor, conviction is a work of the Holy Spirit but it precedes regeneration.



So, we agree that this is a work of God, and is in no way contingent upon man's merit?


Quote:
Their is no merit achieved by man but man has been given responsibility to accept or reject God's grace. God does not force people to love Him. We love Him because he first loved us!



So, men must accept this grace because they are either more spiritual, smarter, more humble, etc?

Friend, I never said anything about robots or puppets. You're right, God does not take away our will - [b]he changes them[/b]. He gives us new hearts (Ezek 36:26-27).

I believe TJservant has this quote in his signature: To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect. - John Owen

I would suggest thinking long and hard about that quote, friends.

Think about our own situation, was it a sovereign work of God or not. If we were convicted by a sermon - who put it in our hearts to listen to such a sermon? If we were convicted by the Scripture - who put it in our hearts to read such a Book? The work is all of God.

This is so important to me, brothers, because we our talking about our Great God, who shares His glory with no man. I long to see His grace appreciated in all of its fullness and freeness. He showed grace simply out of the "good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1).

Grace to you.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/10/29 9:08Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:


I believe TJservant has this quote in his signature: To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect. - John Owen

I would suggest thinking long and hard about that quote, friends.

Think about our own situation, was it a sovereign work of God or not. If we were convicted by a sermon - who put it in our hearts to listen to such a sermon? If we were convicted by the Scripture - who put it in our hearts to read such a Book? The work is all of God.

Grace to you.



This is true because we do not have power of ourselves to do anything that is of God.

We must totally trust in God and his work of grace by the power of His Spirit. In Romans 4:16, he tells us that we have access to this grace through faith.

In heb. 11:6, He tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Brother Taylor I know that you are exalting God and giving Him all the glory for your salvation and I want you to know I am too!

The main problem is what we both don't quite understand is how to give Him all the glory.

I'm still learning, and I do want to give Him all the glory and that is why I believe I'm giving Him all the glory when I say that I believe He gives everybody the opportunity to be the whosoever that believeth. I am not going to accuse God of sending people to hell just because he didn't want to offer them grace. God is all powerful brother, if he can save some by his sovereign grace then he can save all, if man has been given no responsibility to respond.

 2008/10/29 9:35Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Brother Taylor I know that you are exalting God and giving Him all the glory for your salvation and I want you to know I am too! The main problem is what we both don't quite understand is how to give Him all the glory. I'm still learning, and I do want to give Him all the glory and that is why I believe I'm giving Him all the glory when I say that I believe He gives everybody the opportunity to be the whosoever that believeth. I am not going to accuse God of sending people to hell just because he didn't want to offer them grace. God is all powerful brother, if he can save some by his sovereign grace then he can save all, if man has been given no responsibility to respond.



Thank you for your response. I believe we have both sufficiently stated our case for now - may the reader use sound judgment in determining what is of God - as revealed in His Scripture.

May God be pleased to guide us into all truth that accords with godliness.

Grace to you all.


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/10/29 9:45Profile
int3grity
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Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


 Re:

hello brothers and sisters in the LORD! I have been blessed by sermon index but have never had the time to do posts. I can't help but speak up now though. I used to be an arminian but was convinced by Scripture of the doctrines of grace. I count my brothers and sisters in CHRIST who deny these doctrines dear fellow Labourers with me in the LORD but when some come out saying the doctrines of grace are heresy I get quite upset.

Heretics go to hell. Brother HmmHmm, I take your accusations as the writting off of many on sermon index, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, many other dear brothers, and myself as being consigned to hell as heretics. Please be a little more careful with the "H" word.

Brother Krispy and others, please do not comment on this post if you have'nt even seen the video. There are so many egregorious diatribes out there against the doctrines of grace and half the time when people rail on me it is because they think they know what these doctrines are after reading the greviuos misrepresentation and historical revisionist propaganda of the proud Dave HuntM

Brother Ricky posted this video to clear up some of the lies people believe about these doctrines. Please don't comment until you have watched the video.


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Ryan

 2008/10/29 13:05Profile
repentcanada
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Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659


 Re:

I am thankful this has developed into a great thread, that we can talk over the Scriptures on such things in love. I just want to deeper know the things of God and the truths of His Holy Word.

 2008/10/29 13:30Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

What if we simply look at this in a simple way?

Firstly, who are the ones who are saved?

Rom 8:29 For [b]those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son[/b], in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And [b]those whom he predestined he also called[/b], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Notice that the "foreknown" are "predestined" for something; "to be conformed to the image of His Son".
Next notice that "those whom he predestined he also called". But it does not say He calls all men, but rather those whom He foreknew.

Now look at Paul's words in Ephesians

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us(Christians) in him [b]before the foundation of the world[/b], that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 [b]he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,[/b]

There are many other passages, but for the sake of brevity I will stop here.

So those who believe in Christ were chosen before the foundation of the world, and are called "the elect".

If only "the elect" and no more will believe in Christ, is it not safe to say that God has chosen them, but not all?

Either way, God has indeed created people that will perish, but they will perish because they were not part of the elect who have faith in Christ and are being conformed into His image.

However we have no idea who or how many the elect are, and it would be best to proclaim the good news of Christ's person and work to all in hopes that some would be saved.


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patrick heaviside

 2008/10/29 13:42Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

Thank you rbanks for your kind words. :-P


Quote:
Ultimately, friends, at the end of the day, the opposers to this have God responding to some merit in man (conviction, sorrow, etc.), whereas I firmly believe the Scriptures that it is not of human will or exertion (Romans 9:16), but on God who shows mercy - free and pure.



This is where we agree, TaylorOtwell.

It is God who has shown mercy, amen!

For He has first loved us!


I believe this is the distinction between us in this joy:

Quote:
God does not take away our will - he changes them. He gives us new hearts (Ezek 36:26-27).



If you would like to understand what I have tried to explain and what many here believe concerning regeneration, it goes something like this:


How does God change our hearts?

Stephen, the evangelist martyr, declared boldly,

[b]Acts 7
51.[/b] "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

And this is important because YOU CANNOT resist a [b]passive force[/b]. The implication here is that the Holy Spirit was actively pursuing these men to convert them but they resisted Him. Hence, I seriously question the doctrine of "passive hardening." The condemnation of men is the LIGHT that has come into the world and NOT the darkness, which God in times past winked at.

Therefore, it is conceivable that God can actively work in reprobate's hearts, where He intends their salvation, but in the LIGHT of this intended salvation, this work of mercy and grace, becomes the very thing that seals their condemnation if they will not repent and seek the Living God.

This is the responsibility of man. As it is my conviction that the very Same Light and Love that leads some unto faith and repentance is the very Same Light and Love that shall utterly condemn the world for its unbelief. I just cannot rationalize a God who acts differently towards different men. So as to say, "this one I will actively work upon and this one I shall passively give over."

Think about this: the very concept gives rise to belief that Love is not able to save! For God's "common grace" -- what is that if not His Love? -- is upon every man. Is it then a "lesser" or "passive" love towards the reprobate?

Consider this, if they are resisting the Holy Spirit then God HAS ALREADY come to them, thus, it is absolutely true "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."

For you see, if the Holy Spirit is already come upon the hearts and minds of men then He comes with all the power of salvation with Him -- and the gospel is the power of God unto salvation! And there is nothing required of men but to stop resisting Him and let Him perfect His work in us, whereof the end is eternal life. However, if we continue to resist the Holy Spirit then our judgment is just and our condemnation made certain -- for He comes to bear witness of the Light, Christ Jesus; and whosoever does not believe the testimony of Him has not believed the gospel God has given unto men.


So you see, God is the First Cause in everything, salvation and regeneration being no different! There is no denying this great joy! He first loved us! He came unto His creatures and sent His Spirit and His prophets and His church and His Scripture so that we all might believe on Him! Thank you Jesus for giving to the Lord!

Indeed, as you have said, "this is all the work of God."


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Jordan

 2008/10/29 14:12Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
But it does not say He calls all men, but rather those whom He foreknew.



Look here at Paul's words in Acts:

[b]Acts 17
30.[/b] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

God has commanded all men every where to repent.


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Jordan

 2008/10/29 14:19Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

How does saying I use to be an Armenian or for all that matters...I used to be a Calvinist or now I am a Calvinist or Armenian relieve our responsibility to the lost or our responsibility to the grace of God.

In an earlier post it was mentioned that God only changed the hearts of some by his Sovereign grace. Well, why can't you explain the other one's who you say didn't get the grace of regeneration without blaming God?

I thing some just want to be relieved of their responsibility before God. They talk so much about defending God's grace, but that can also be used as a cop out.(not accusing anyone but could be)

Sounds to me like the same thing Adam did in the garden when he blamed God by saying "the woman that you gave me".

Can't you see this is the same when you say well God is going to save only certain one's and not save certain one's no matter about the responsibility of man. I don't need to have a burden for the lost because it has already been decided and it is God's fault that people are going to hell. It's not my responsibility to pray and witness. It's not man's responsibility to respond to the grace of God because man doesn’t have anything to do with it. (Not accusing anyone on this thread but can be interpreted this way)

Calvinist do a somewhat wonderful job of magnifying the grace of God but a pitiful job when it comes to the many scriptures that deal with the responsibility God has given to all men. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Jesus said except we repent we are all going to perish.(He didn't say unless you were already elected)

The truth of the matter is that God's grace is truly amazing and no one can explain it but that is not our part. Grace is God's part but God has given us a part in trusting and surrendering to that grace. We have a responsibility to believe, pray and obey with the Spirit of his grace. When God's grace touches your life and you believe and receive salvation you will be so thankful. You will give him all the glory and you will know that you had nothing to do with it because if God hadn't given you the ability you couldn't have received nor done anything.

 2008/10/29 14:39Profile





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