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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Sorry…I use Motrin. :-)


_________________
TJ

 2008/10/28 16:08Profile









 Re:

Jesus heals headaches too. :-)

God forbid!...that it was the Word that gave you the headache. Now wouldn't that be a parodox?! We would need a "pair of docs...for a pair of ox" :-)

 2008/10/28 16:40
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:



Hi TaylorOtwell,

I believe that Ephesians 1:13 is teaching us that after faith in Christ has taken place, then Salvation takes place (The sealing of the Spirit):

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Yours in Christ,
John

 2008/10/28 16:46Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

3rddaymsngr wrote:

Quote:



God forbid!...that it was the Word that gave you the headache. Now wouldn't that be a parodox?!




Now here is the kicker. Would you have gotten the headache in the first place if you didn't read this post, or was the headache predestined regardless of this post? :-P


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Christiaan

 2008/10/28 16:54Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I would like to ask the calvinists on here, how is double predestination not true if your view of predestination is right. How can you have one without the other? As you know, I don't believe in predestination as taught in calvinism, but I have wondered this. Thanks!



This video is not denying the doctrine of double predestination. It is refuting an incorrect view of it called, “Equal Ultimacy”.

This erroneous understanding of double predestination is thought by some non-Calvinists to be the view held by Calvinists.


Grace and peace


_________________
TJ

 2008/10/28 16:56Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Hi TaylorOtwell, I believe that Ephesians 1:13 is teaching us that after faith in Christ has taken place, then Salvation takes place (The sealing of the Spirit): Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise Yours in Christ, John



Hi John,

Thanks for responding. I wasn't trying to state that salvation precedes faith. I agree with you, salvation takes place after faith. I was stating that regeneration precedes faith and gives the sinner the desire to believe.

In other words, our blind eyes are opened and we can see the beauty of the gospel and Christ which we once did not care for.

2nd Corinthians 4:6 may prove helpful:

[i]For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[/i]

As God said "Let there be light" into the darkness at the creation of the world. Likewise, God said "Let there be light" into the darkness of our souls in redemption. It was the Lord who took the initiative in speaking into the darkness that was our souls.


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/10/28 18:09Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brother Taylor, so you are saying that God doesn’t throw out a life line to two people in the water going down stream to an unknown waterfall that will result in sudden destruction. But what he does is…he tries to warn the people, but it’s not up to them to heed the warning, he just uses a crane and grabs one of them out and decides to leave the other to sudden destruction.

 2008/10/28 18:13Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Perhaps I would describe it allegorically like this - though I don't believe this allegory completely fits the situation:

The Lord is on the bank. All of mankind of is swimming as fast as they can away from the bank - because they hate God and would rather see Him murdered than ruling their lives. What some don't know, is that they are swimming towards the waterfall. Some hate God so much they would rather swim over the waterfall than return to Him, though He has warned all of them what will be their fate. However, in infinite mercy, instead of letting everyone of those vile sinners swim off the waterfall, God pulls the rock-hard, stone heart out of some, opens their eyes, and they see the infinite beauty of God and return to Him by His grace.


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/10/28 18:19Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

As explained by Mark Kieler:


There are two streams both flowing the same way.

There are two boys, one on each stream, each with a toy boat.

One boy (boy A) grabs his boat and forces it upstream keeping his hand on it the entire way while the other (boy B) simply releases his boat and allows for the stream to take it to its final destination.

Did both boys predetermine what they wanted the boat to do and where they wanted it to end up?

Yes.

Did the boy who let the boat go need to add anything of his effort to the boat to ensure that it went where it was already heading?

No.

He simply took his hand off and allowed for nature to take its course. This latter boy is an example of what is known as reprobation in double predestination. Both boats are going to a destination, but the boy who kept his hand on the boat and pushed it up the river was actively involved in the task against the natural course of things while the boy who simply let it go was passively allowing for what he predestined to come to pass (the natural course of things).

Many people argue against double predestination while using boy A as the metaphor for what God does. (Boy A [God] pushing the boat [man] up river [toward sin] while the river in Boy A's situation [man's inclination to being born good and doing good, wanting to be saved] is trying to get the boy to do what's right while the boy A [God] is not letting that happen.)

This, in logic, is called a straw man fallacy. That means that they're arguing a position that isn't advocated by the person they're arguing against, destroying that argument, then going off to claim victory for themselves.

The correct position is that boy B [God] is restraining the boat [man] from going downstream to its fatal end off a cliff [reprobation]. Boy B then lets his hand off the boat and allows it to go get what will naturally happen. Note that in the first example man's condition is seen as pretty much good while in the latter, man's condition is seen as sinful and "condemned already for not believing on the only begotten son of God." (John 3:18).

*******************************

The video does a much better job.

Grace and peace


_________________
TJ

 2008/10/28 18:33Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
I would like to ask the calvinists on here, how is double predestination not true if your view of predestination is right. How can you have one without the other? As you know, I don't believe in predestination as taught in calvinism, but I have wondered this. Thanks!



This video is not denying the doctrine of double predestination. It is refuting an incorrect view of it called, “Equal Ultimacy”.

This erroneous understanding of double predestination is thought by some non-Calvinists to be the view held by Calvinists.


Grace and peace



Thanks, TJ! As I said, I can't watch the video even though I'd like to.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/10/28 19:05Profile





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