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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

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 Re:

This may be helpful in that it is easy to remember because it rhymes and plainly shows the foolishness of the puffed up mind. (feel free to shorten or improve upon the meter of the rhyme)

Predestination is not according to YOURknowledge but according to God's FOREknowledge.

easy right? not your knowledge - foreknowledge

Which you don't have. Since you lack that foreknowledge you should not therefore expect to grasp predestination. Nor should you shun those passages of scripture because the all-wise God is honored in them. He truly has power over all his creation. He has given us the choice while it is "Today". Soon it will not be Today anymore and those who hardened their own hearts will have even the little they had taken from them. Those who deny free will unto death blaspheme the Holy Spirit by blaming God for evil. They reject forgiveness in this age and will not receive it in the next.

Some might be tempted to reject God's foreknowledge and the related passages because they would put off repentance until they see their life coming to it's end even though they have known the just judgment of God the whole time. But God will judge them according to their words, deeds, and the secrets of their hearts.

Balthasar Hubmaier warned that we should not stay long at the point of indecision and become impaled while hanging in between heaven and earth like Absalom with the three wounds of consent, word, and deed.

Christ taught many things in great detail, other things he explained are not for us to know. It is good to be careful not to stray to the right or to the left but not by ignoring some scriptures one day and other scriptures the next. That is not balance but double-mindedness and insanity. We are told in Proverbs in all you do get understanding.

 2008/11/13 11:44
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Right there is the kicker! One must understand since all mankind are equally hell bound, How does God choose those whom He will save? If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He chooses which are as equal as those He does not choose. Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?



Actually, God is not the respecter of persons in the sense of social status and nationality, which you will see if you examine the context of the passages that use such a phrase.

God choosing specific individuals, was not according to any foreseen merit, but rather simply according to his good pleasure (Eph. 1). God did not choose them because they were American, rich, poor, Greek, etc. (although he has chosen some from all of these categories), so, in that sense, God does not show partiality. The Scriptures simply do not give any reason for why God chose the elect other than the good pleasure of his will. That's part of why John Newton called grace "Amazing"! The whole concept of grace is that it is given to those who do not meet the qualifications for its reward.

Furthermore, others have posted arguments such as "chosen to be in Christ; not chosen to heaven", etc. Honestly, that is a very illogical statement. I'm assuming those who state such things believe that those predestined to be in Christ will also go to heaven (otherwise they weren't predestined to be in Christ). So, to be predestined to be in Christ is the same thing as to be predestined to enter the new earth.

Grace to you,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/13 13:24Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3707
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 Re:

No man can meet the qualifications for being the elect. God has made the elect by His own choosing for His good pleasure. Its like a vidio game and the programer gave the created beings the ability to choose right and wrong, and if they chose wrong there are penilities. The first player in the game, chose to believe an original player in the game that wanted to be the programmer. Hence all from the player a little lower than the first programmed (Satan), were then already given Satan's capacity for self and not the Programmer of all. So God chose to wipe them all off the hard drive, but God decided to save eight of His players from destruction by a great flood. They did not deserve to be saved, they just found favor in the Plan of God. What is Gods, the Programmers Plan? He wanted to be a Father and have son's In His house. But a created being does not have the Father's nature, for they were created not birthed, programmed with life, organic beings, not birthed by a Father's Seed.

God in His plan to show His willingness to give all that He had to give Him the Justification to give birth to sons. It is a Father's choice to bring forth birthed sons'. The son's have no choice in the matter, no child can say why did you make me. A Father does not consult with a birthing to ask them if they want to be born or not. My earthly father did not consult with me, to see if I wanted to be born and either did my heaven Father.

Consequently, all children of God are not consulted and they have no right to ask, why did you make me this way? Israel and all before the pivotal point in God's Plan, the Cross were not birthed sons', and could not be, because the Seed had not come yet. Once God was justified in giving birth to His son's, because He Fathered One only begotten Son and and He shed His Blood that God could then put that Seed, and be justified before all creation, Jesus Christ in the created beings and give them rebirth. Now The Programmer was a Father and He is still giving birth to son's for His House.

Now that we are sons' of God, He has already given us sonship in His House and made us to sit in heavenly places with the original begotten Son, and by His Seed we are son's of God and fellow heirs with the only Begotten Son who makes all God's children begotten son's by that Seed, being born again from above, the old created clay pot, become a temple of God by Life and Birth given of a perfect Father, Now we are sons' and we are perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect by the Seed that is birthed in us. Perfect, you ask, how can this be?

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

God is much more that just a simple programmer, but know we can know the totality of who The Great Programmer is, Our Father.

Ephesians 3:17-21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Praise God, in His programmed Plan before the foundation of the World He chose me to be one of His Birthed Children in Christ, and praise God for all that are His, in His perfect Son, of whom I am elected to be be a son also. This is His Plan and no one can say "why did you make me this way".

Psalms 2:7-12 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.

Even unto Israel; Jeremiah 18:3-6 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Even unto all that dwell on the earth, all that are at the finger tips of the perfect Programmer, who are no longer Pots of Clay, but Temples of the Living God, In Christ Jesus our Lord and New birthed Life.

Romans 9:20-26 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

We should all be in travail of our birth until Christ be formed in all that are His, now and until His coming.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

We are no longer children of this world.

Luke 20:34-36 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the Seed. (Jesus Christ) "In You the Hope of Glory".

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The Great game of life by the Great and perfect Programmer, even very God our Father of New Birth.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/11/13 16:33Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
Right there is the kicker! One must understand since all mankind are equally hell bound, How does God choose those whom He will save? If he chooses some for any other reason than for meeting qualifications of election, God would be showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward them He chooses which are as equal as those He does not choose. Therefore, what are these qualifications that the elect meet?


Actually, God is not the respecter of persons in the sense of social status and nationality, which you will see if you examine the context of the passages that use such a phrase.

[b]Romans2:6[/b] [color=660000]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[b]7[/b] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seeking for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[b]8[/b] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[b]9[/b] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does the evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
[b]10[/b] But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works the good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
[b]11[/b] For there is no respect of persons with God.[/color]
This is not about social status and nationality, it is about doing the evil & working the good.
Working the good is patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.
Doing the evil is being contentious, and not obeying the truth, but obey unrighteousness,

However, if God chooses some and not the rest when all are equal, that is showing partiality, God would have undue bias toward the ones whom He chose.

How do you get around that?

Quote:
God choosing specific individuals, was not according to any foreseen merit, but rather simply according to his good pleasure (Eph. 1).

Obedience to the command of repenting and of putting your faith in & on Christ & what He has said & done has no merit, nothing to be proud of.
[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000] So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
To say that God elects according to His good plesrue is ambiguous if not arbitrary.

We all know God has a reason why He gives eternal life to people.
God is not arbitrary & being arbitrary is choosing for reasons based on ones own will without outide reference or rule.
Therefore, His choice must be based on something outside of Himself.
This "something" which is outside of God must be as He is, eternal, and must be according to His character. They are the terms He has fixed - Namely, on those only who submit to His terms that He has appointed

Do not be amazed at this, for we all know that if God's reason for election is based only on Himself, that would be arbitrary.
God can not chose just because He thinks it is right, He needs to have a foundation for His oppinion to be based.
This foundation or rule is what He had set as mandates & obligations one must do in order fot God to forgive, Justify/make righteous, Reconcile, Regenerate/Adopt, Sanctify, and Glorify.
What rules are there to be save?
According to Calvyies & Refomed, one must not do anything but keep sinning until god suddenly hits you with a irresistible grace and sudenly "regenerates" you & BOOM !!! saved.

However, the set condtions are given in Scripture, which I have already mentioned.

Y'all seem to think that one does not need to repent &/or have faith in order to be saved.
If you saynthat one needs them, you go off the deep end sgain and say that God must give them first.
You can not or will not explain how God could be justified in condemning for what He is responsible for.

Quote:
God did not choose them because they were American, rich, poor, Greek, etc. (although he has chosen some from all of these categories), so, in that sense, God does not show partiality. The Scriptures simply do not give any reason for why God chose the elect other than the good pleasure of his will.

Surly, the Scripture does give the reason for why God chose.
It is those who submit to the command to repent & to put ones faith in & on Christ & what He has said & done.

Quote:
That's part of why John Newton called grace "Amazing"! The whole concept of grace is that it is given to those who do not meet the qualifications for its reward.

Meating the qualifications do not merit anything and they are not what the grace if for.
We need grace because we disqualified ourselves by past sins and are no longer worthy of being called son.(Luke 15:18-19,21)
We needed grace for God to come down and make away for all who will obey the command to repent to be made rightous.

However, without these qulifications of faith & reoentance, one can not be save.
Yes, God can not save those who will not repent or put ones faith in & on Christ & what He has said & done.

Quote:
Furthermore, others have posted arguments such as "chosen to be in Christ; not chosen to heaven", etc. Honestly, that is a very illogical statement. I'm assuming those who state such things believe that those predestined to be in Christ will also go to heaven (otherwise they weren't predestined to be in Christ). So, to be predestined to be in Christ is the same thing as to be predestined to enter the new earth.

I assume they mean that one may apostsize & no long be in Christ to go to heaven.

 2008/11/13 17:21Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
No man can meet the qualifications for being the elect.

Then why would He command these qulifications?
Only the wicked would command something imposible.
Quote:
God has made the elect by His own choosing for His good pleasure.

explain how that is NOT arbitrary.

No one has yet explained how God commands all to believe, but He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

 2008/11/13 17:32Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
No one has yet explained how God commands all to believe, but He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.



Quote:
Only the wicked would command something imposible.



Friend, your demand has false assumptions in it, which is perhaps why some have not answered it.

God is not responsible for any unbelief. Sinful men are unbelieving from birth. The fact that the Lord graciously chooses to remove the stony hearts of some does not mean he is responsible for the unbelief of others.

Your other false assumption is that man is never given a command that is impossible for him. Actually, the fact that man is commanded things that are impossible for him is the very thing Paul describes as the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. Man was commanded to keep the law perfectly, which, unless you are Christ, is impossible. Therefore, Paul said that the law cannot justify. The fact that it is impossible to keep the law is one means that God uses to drive men to Christ - per Galatians.

Likewise, it is impossible for sinful man to believe in Christ, unless the Lord gives him ears to hear and eyes to see the beauty of such a glorious Savior.

Quote:
Only the wicked would command something impossible.



Friend, I warn you for your own spiritual good and a desire to see the Lord's flock walking in purity of life. I would be careful saying such things, for in doing so you may have called the Lord of glory wicked.

Quote:
According to Calvyies & Refomed, one must not do anything but keep sinning until god suddenly hits you with a irresistible grace and sudenly "regenerates" you & BOOM !!! saved.



Which is exactly what happened to the Apostle Paul - and, by the grace of God, me.

Grace to you,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/13 18:17Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
No one has yet explained how God commands all to believe, but He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.


Quote:
Only the wicked would command something imposible.

Friend, your demand has false assumptions in it, which is perhaps why some have not answered it.

God is not responsible for any unbelief.

He is if He must first give it.
The reason why people don't believe is because He hasn't given it to them.
It is God's responsibility to give faith in order for them to believe, then God is responsible for people not believing.

Don't say that it is man's falt for loosing the ability to have faith, because according to you man was born that way or, it was Adam's fault.

No one can be responsible for what one is born as, for what Adam has already done.

There is no false assumption, just sound reasoning.

Quote:
Sinful men are unbelieving from birth.

The term unbelieving implys ability and refusal to do so.
Infants from birth are incapable of faith, unike sinners who are capable, but refuse.
Therefore, men can not be unbelieving from birth.

Think before you type.

Quote:
The fact that the Lord graciously chooses to remove the stony hearts of some does not mean he is responsible for the unbelief of others.

He is if He must give faith.
What is the deciding factor that God uses to chose whom He removes a stony heart from?

If all hearts are equally stony, if he chooses some & not others, He is being partial towards them who He chooses.

No one has yet given the reason for God's choosing.
All the answers have been arbitrary, please give a non-arbitrary reason if the ones that I have given are incorrect.

Quote:
Your other false assumption is that man is never given a command that is impossible for him. Actually, the fact that man is commanded things that are impossible for him is the very thing Paul describes as the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. Man was commanded to keep the law perfectly, which, unless you are Christ, is impossible. Therefore, Paul said that the law cannot justify. The fact that it is impossible to keep the law is one means that God uses to drive men to Christ - per Galatians.

The command of repenting and of putting ones faith toward Christ is not impossible for the sinner.

Theses are the only commands the lost are able to obey & must obey, outside of Christ.
They are also the criteria in which God elects. If I am wrong, please give the correct answer which is not unarbitrary.

Quote:
Likewise, it is impossible for sinful man to believe in Christ, unless the Lord gives him ears to hear and eyes to see the beauty of such a glorious Savior.

Prove this to be true & explain how God in not responsible for those who do not have ears to hear and eyes to see?
You can not say that man is responsible for that because y'all say he was born that way, which takes the responsibility off man; for no one can be responsible for what one is born as & with.

 2008/11/13 19:31Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3707
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 Re:

If you have sinned once, you prove our nature chosen by our created father Adam. If you have never sinned, you prove your obedience to the nature of our Father God. Only One man did that as I can see from Scripture, Jesus Christ. It is His nature that must be born again in the believer for God to be well pleased as God our Father. Adam chose our nature, God did not. God chose our nature in Christ Jesus that He would have son's in His House, which is God's whole arbitrary reason for birthing us in Christ Jesus before the very foundation of the world. God can be arbitrary one day and not arbitrary the next day, but all His decisions are His perfect will and for His pleasure.

Not to man, for the very statement that God is responsibile for your sinning or not sinning, proves your sinning and choosing sin, your choosing or not choosing, your saving faith or no faith, but in ourself, but who are you oh man to question the perfection of God. If you don't have faith unto salvation it is not Gods responsibility, it is yours. If you do have saving faith unto salvation, praise God. This is not the arbitrariness of God, but His Love that any should be saved and yet no want any to parish. I deserve hell by my own choice.
I attained salvation and Christ in me by God's Fatherhood of wanting sons' and His choice, not mine for no sinner could ever choose God, He makes that plain. He did not consult me in my birthing, He just did it. I don't know why or how or really when, except He says He did choose me to be in Christ before the foundation of the World. I don't deserve it or really did not even desire it. Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

His choosing, His will, His Son, He killed to get me. Why? I cannot fathom the depth of the willingness of God to kill a perfect Son to get one that is so imperfect and deserves Hell. But, He did it and all I can do is praise Him forever for doing it. These are the ones in whom we have to do, son's of God. The rest, never could, never would, and never will be son's of God by their own choosing. Not God predestinating them to hell. His only predestination is those He chose will be in His Son Jesus Christ. What ever it takes for those in Christ, God will supply by His own means, that the Son and the Father will be glorified within that means.

You can fight with yourself all your life and you will still not have the answer of why, Just believe and God will do the rest. When you see Him, ask Him that question and use the word arbitrary to the perfect God Jesus Christ, standing before you. I don't think you will get an answer, but will be put in kindergarten to bring forth the Christ that is in you.

Acts 17:28-30 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now we can repent, because we have the knowledge of what to repent of, by the Mind of Christ that is in us.

In His precious Son, whom He killed, just to get a sinner such as I. I cannot justify, or fathom the depth of the mind of God. But, I can praise Him, that He is God and there is no other, not even I who was deceived in my father and mother, Adam and Eve of whose nature I surely was of my father the devil.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/11/13 23:23Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
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 Re:

Logic, can you not see in your own writing that you believe the will is enslaved to the affections... since you said yourself that, "The choice that we make will naturally follow our affections."

And if our wills always follow our affections, as you say, then we cannot will against our affections, and are consequently not 'free' at all, but at the mercy of our affections! We are willing only to do what we desire.

And this is exactly my point, that when Adam sinned, the nature of his being changed, and his affections were from then on given to sin. All who are born of Adam share his nature, his being and essence. They have received his fallen nature just as wholly as an acorn receives the full nature of the oak from which it came. Though the seed has not yet produced leaves and roots, it is latent with the full power of the tree, and will only ever grow into the form of its bearer. So says Genesis, "each one produced after its kind." Likewise, the sinful beings spawned from a sinner become only more visibly sinful. Though buds and blossoms of wickedness are not grown to maturity, the youngest soul of fallen man is essentially wicked.

Our Lord told us by John, "A bad tree cannot bear good fruits", and this is why we must become, as it were, new trees. We must have a new Parent, the Spirit, to receive a new nature by a new birth. Which of those analogies places the origin of regeneration in man's power? None.

I may have patience with those who hold opposing opinions because I for so long passionately plead the same views, but I thank God for revealing to me such amazing grace. I think of the billions who will justly perish, and then of His electing me to grace. Me?! Oh God, thank you!

 2008/11/13 23:30Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

theopenlife wrote:
Logic, can you not see in your own writing that you believe the will is enslaved to the affections... since you said yourself that, "The choice that we make will naturally follow our affections."

And if our wills always follow our affections, as you say, then we cannot will against our affections, and are consequently not 'free' at all, but at the mercy of our affections! We are willing only to do what we desire.

I did not say that our wills [b]always[/b] follow our affections.
If they were, we may be persuaded to turn our affections toward another.

However, we are able to go against our affections.
True story:
A man went to the Philippines and married a woman, and in order to have her come to America, He would need to leave her there and come home to petition for her visa.
His affections were to stay in the Philippines and be with his wife.
Every part of him wanted to stay and not leave.
However, he chose what is right, went against his own affection and went home with out his newly wedded wife.
This man was not saved and did what you say is an incapability, inability.

[b]All I was stating which you misinterpreted was we naturally tend to go according to our affections, [u]but we are not bound to them.[/u][/b]

Quote:
And this is exactly my point, that when Adam sinned, the nature of his being changed, and his affections were from then on given to sin.

This is unfounded, you have no scriptural support for this statement.

Why don't you say that his affections were given to sin before he ate of that tree? They were in fact towards sin then.

Tell me, why do you say that we have a "sin nature" because we sin, but you do not say that Adam had a "sin nature" because He sinned?

What makes his reason for sinning any different that ours?

Furthermore, since Adam was restored back to God when God clothed him and taught him to sacrifice(which Adam taught his sons) you can not say that he passed anything down to us(if there could have been) as he was before being restored.

Quote:
All who are born of Adam share his nature, his being and essence.

Were can you prove his nature changed?

Quote:
So says Genesis, "each one produced after its kind." Likewise, the sinful beings spawned from a sinner become only more visibly sinful.

Adam was no longer a sinner, because he was restored, therefore your theory is wrong.
Just as Christians are no longer "sinners" Adam was no longer a sinner when restored.
Furthermore, why would Christians bring forth babies with a "sin nature" if we don't have on any more.

Furthermore, sin is not hereditary, it is nothing to change a nature of man.

You do know that Adam sinned for the same reason that all mankind sins to day.
Adam sinned because he obeyed lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

I have Scripture to prove this if you haven't already read it.
Your theory is full of holes.

Quote:
Though buds and blossoms of wickedness are not grown to maturity, the youngest soul of fallen man is essentially wicked.

Newborn infant can not be wicked, to be wicked, one must do wickedly.
Just as to be a sinner, one needs to employ themselves in sin.
Babies can not be sinners, for they do not employ themselves in sin.

Quote:
Our Lord told us by John, "A bad tree cannot bear good fruits", and this is why we must become, as it were, new trees.

[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b] [color=990000]...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourselves or in this world. If our root is of ourselves or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

One is only born immature, not born with a sin nature.

People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
Do not call our nature as a fruit, for sin is only a fruit.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of either three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.

[color=990000]If the root is holy, so also the branches.[/color] [b]Romans 11:16b[/b]
[color=990000]As the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, unless it remain in the vine,[/color] [b]John 15:4[/b]

Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has his own self as his root. Or he may also be worldly, for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature decide what its fruit is.

What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
[b]James 1:24[/b] [color=990000]for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what [b]kind[/b] he was.[/color]

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, orange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant, and it will always have a plant nature no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

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We must have a new Parent, the Spirit, to receive a new nature by a new birth.

correction, we must have our affection turned towards Christ.
All mankind is able to be persuaded to do this. Some only refuse.
Again, if Christians have a "new nature" then why are our children born with a "sin nature'

If Adam can pass his nature down, so must we.
Again, your theory is full of holes.

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Which of those analogies places the origin of regeneration in man's power? None.

Were not talking about "regeneration", we are talking about all mankind’s responsibility to turn their faith in/on Christ and what He has said & done.

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I may have patience with those who hold opposing opinions because I for so long passionately plead the same views, but I thank God for revealing to me such amazing grace.

You lost your common sense, if you held to "the same views".
You were duped!

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I think of the billions who will justly perish, and then of His electing me to grace. Me?! Oh God, thank you!

You make it as it were not their fault for perishing.
As if God didn't want to give them eternal life which Adam lost for them.

Do you ever figure the logical conclusion of your theology?

 2008/11/14 1:11Profile





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