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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Well good for you. I am taking great umbrage at your notions that have all the tinge and stench of the 'prosperity' movement of this hour. Sheer foolishness and lack of grasp to stick this in here, your prideful boasting while all around you pain, misery and suffering ... narcissism?


OK, fair is fair. Only I dont quite feel the same liberty as you. However, I dont need a level field .....just a bible.

You can't seem to equate the words from the English language to the bible but you choose to align my words with word of faith.

I know prosperity is the calling card of wof.
And healing is the calling card of Benny Hinn.
And power to women is the calling card of TD Jake's.
Encouragement is the calling card of Olsteen.

The problem you will face is that these things (words) are in the bible and they cannot become triggers for name calling and berating your fellow brother in the Lord.

 2008/9/24 1:06Profile
jsisrl
Member



Joined: 2005/5/4
Posts: 116


 Re:

Quote:

May we turn our eyes upon Jesus
Look full in His Wonderful Face.
And the things of Earth will grow strangely dim,
In the Light of His Glory and Grace.

God Bless all
Nellie



AMEN!!! This song has been coming upon my heart for about 5 months now. It was a joy to hear you speak it as well. God bless you Nellie.


_________________
Connie

 2008/9/24 1:12Profile
jsisrl
Member



Joined: 2005/5/4
Posts: 116


 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
Abundance is of God. It is his economy

Quote:
The economy of abundance is saturated with God.


Take this message, why don't you, and preach it to our persecuted brothers in labor camps, take your lie to the apostle Paul in a roach-infested prison. Riches, miracles, healing, saturated abundance?

You should be so blessed to be poor and in constant want, where God is your only daily reliance for life and sustenance; as it stands, I am more and more convinced that riches and great wealth and perfect health are pitfalls rather than blessings. We don't see the results immediately, but over time, it becomes more and more apparent.



Amen PaulWest.

It is written:
Phil 4:11-13

11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
KJV


_________________
Connie

 2008/9/24 1:16Profile
jsisrl
Member



Joined: 2005/5/4
Posts: 116


 Re:

Quote:

Pray that we believers may continue to be allowed to live godly and peaceful lives.

In Christ
Jeff



Amen, we shall--------->[b][size=large]"if we/ye":[/size][/b]
It is written -

Gal 5:25-26

25 [b]If we[/b] live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
KJV

2 Tim 2:11-14

11 It is a faithful saying: For [b]if we[/b] be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 [b]If we[/b] suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 [b]If we[/b] believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
KJV

Col 1:21-23

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 [b]If ye[/b] continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
KJV

PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WORD!!!


_________________
Connie

 2008/9/24 1:29Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3466
Louisiana

 Re:

"As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack." (2 Corinthians 8:15).

"And all that believed were together and had all things in common; and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men as every man had need." (Acts 2:44,45).


The prosperity teachings that God wants his children to be rich is a false teaching, but so is the teaching that God wants his children to be poor and in lack.

The Lord has promised us that we would meet our needs, and that we are not to worry about what we are to eat and to drink but to seek the kingdom first.

Those in the Church that have been blessed abudnantly in finances should help those that are in lack. This was the principle that the early Church operated under.

As the scripture says: "I have never seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging for bread."

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2008/9/24 6:39Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Clarifications

Quote:
This whole thing is totally inverted and I have been misjudged and Maligned for no good reason.



David, brother ...

Couple of things. Can you please use some " " quotation marks when you are quoting others? There is the button for this as well, but it helps to distinguish for the reader who is speaking ...

I think you are also missing a great deal here ... If you take things at face value and in the context of this post how is it that we are supposed to know just what is your experience or what you might have meant, what you are thinking? We cannot read your mind only what you wrote. That is a great presumption on your part to afterwards come in and fill in the blanks as it were.

Now, just as well it is also my part for assuming too much - I took your 'abundance' language as it sat in the midst of this post over this deplorable situation as it's own wedge that had all the teeming insensitivity and flippant contorting of the scriptures that [i]sounds[/i] quite consistent with the Word of Presumption- Prosperity nonsense that is running rip-shod through the faith in this hour.

But I still think there is a collusion of what constitutes lack\abundance in your usage of these terms- Biblically.

Quote:
Abundance is the absence of lack. Since there is no lack in heaven ,and since God will not pattern his economy on poverty,



Have often heard this definition as well, 'the absence of lack' ...

[i]Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the [u]abundance[/u] of all things;[/i] Deu 28:47

[b]H7230[/b]
רב
rôb
robe
From H7231; abundance (in any respect): - abundance (-antly), all, X common [sort], excellent, great (-ly, -ness, number), huge, be increased, long, many, more in number, most, much, multitude, plenty (-ifully), X very [age].

[b]H7230[/b]
רב
rôb
robe
From H7231; abundance (in any respect): - abundance (-antly), all, X common [sort], excellent, great (-ly, -ness, number), huge, be increased, long, many, more in number, most, much, multitude, plenty (-ifully), X very [age].

I think most of us grasp the concept of what it is to be content with what we have and to thank God for it and some of us also know how to abound and to be abased - who are not strangled by the love of money and so on and so forth ...

" ...[i]since God will not pattern his economy on poverty[/i]"

That is a bit tortured is it not in this context, that is the context of this post? Brother it is just here where it seems there is the confusing of the matters at hand. This is not 'God's economy' we are discussing on the one hand and on the other ... depending on how you want to look at this - Spiritually speaking it is often very much just this, 'suffering' for the sake of others, suffering for the sake of our own carnality - Lay up your treasures in Heaven - Blessed are the poor in spirit - Give what you have to the poor - The widows two mites - I could go on for quite some time ...

To be fair you have no idea what I myself am currently up against or just how difficult it is to be practically handcuffed in the efforts to be freed from this shackle of debt\death. Suffice it to say that not everybody is on the same page in my situation. But again I do not expect you to extrapolate that either by hunch or guess -

This is not about Sudan nor about that kind of suffering - There is as many results as there are causes for all the present sufferings in this world, you know that, we know that; "The poor you will always have with you" the Lord stated. I would say that there is far more of;

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Or better ...

[i]Your riches are rotten, your clothes have been eaten by moths, your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be used as evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have stored up treasures in these last days.

Look! The wages that you kept back from the workers who harvested your fields are shouting out against you, and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of the Heavenly Armies.[/i] Jas 5:2-4

... to draw parallels to in this present situation then talk of abundance -

Quote:
This whole thing is totally inverted and I have been misjudged and Maligned for no good reason.



I think we may be both at fault here David at least to the inversion, but it is only the words and ideas that are at stake, don't take it personally. I apologize, maybe it is the hair trigger that gets to me on certain key words that are now so abused ... 'Abundance' ... 'Lack' ... It's the now twisted jargon of the Copeland's and Creeflo's of the world.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/9/24 8:56Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Good morning, David. I would like to address your reply in a somewhat straightforward manner, but without animosity and keeping a dignified Christian demeanor between us:

Quote:
You cant take a stand on total poverty any more than total riches.


No, David, I was taking a stand against your post, which seemed to pronounce abundance as God's sole "economy"; I am rather stating that God has no one "economy" that He is obligated to work in. The finest men of God have lived in sickness and squalor compared to the children of the devil who live in the earthly abundance you describe. While kings and princes dwell in ivory towers and wore soft raiment, God's elect suffered in prisons, floggings and were considered the outcasts and garbage of the world. Jesus illustrated a poor man (with lack of carnal abundance) going to heaven, while a rich man with full abundance going to hell. Does this fall under God's economy as well? The abundance we are talking about is spiritual, rather than carnal. Their treasures and wealth and abundance were not tied up in physical things, but hid in heaven and the "economy" you speak of is not an economy that is measured by an earthly marketplace and Caesar's taxation. Is your estimation of divine economy measured by dollar signs and comfort? Some of the wealthiest nations of the world with the most abundant economies are actually Mohammedian nations, the worshippers of a demon.

No, David, the true treasures and economy of God are unseen; the treaure we have on earth and any economy for the believer is found in the earnest of the Holy Spirit given unto us. It is the same for all believers, whether living in squalor or comfort, slum or palace, house or hut, sitting in a labor camp or driving a Toyota Corolla to the office. Ironically, we see the ones with less in the physical having more in the spiritual, and not by virtue of having [i]less[/i] (for it is not a magical formula), but by possessing nothing but daily assurance and faith in God to give them their daily bread and protection. Worldy comfort and abundance have a way of quashing all that.

Quote:
I dont know about your unbiblical statement about praying to be poor.


Where did I say we should "pray" to be poor? Jesus said [i]blessed are the poor,[/i]; He also remarked on how hard it will be for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and we see throughout the the Word how when people begin to grow fat and comfortable and enjoy long periods of good health and wealth and riches and a sabbatical from suffering that they eventually wander from God and sin. Sickness and poverty are often a means God employs in His "economy" to keep His people close to Him. They can be blessings in disguise. Now, since I didn't even mention the word "prayer" (you did, thank you), why don't we pray the Biblical prayer: "Lord, give Thy child neither riches in abundance nor extreme poverty and want, lest by my abundance I forget Thee, and by my heavy suffering curse Thee.."

Quote:
You won't thank God for their plight,and you wont say "wow what a blessing to live in a refrigerator box and eat from the garbage dump.


[b]Straw man.[/b] No one wants to thank God when they see a person living in a refrigerator box. This is so foolish, I can't believe you would even put it in my face, and yet, knowing the kind of theology you espouse, I can sort of believe it. Everything is tied up in earthly comfort and tangible miracles and health and wealth, even though you always seem to backpedal when called to account. Are these earthly things really the measuring stick for God under the New Covenant? Did Jesus promise earthly abundance to his followers? Or did He promise pain, persecution, prison and death? If a person lives in a box, they are cursed. If a person has abundance, they are blessed?

A very, very small amount of Christians actually live in earthly abundance; the vast majority of our brothers and sisters live in poverty, are persecuted and beaten, living in the slums, sawn asunder, slain with the sword, imprisoned in labor camps, being destitute, afflicted, tormented (of whom the world is not worthy), wandering in deserts, mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth - and yes, some of the are even in Matamoros, Mexico.
Quote:
I know what loss is.

If it's only connected to dollar signs, I wonder if you truly do...


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/9/24 9:14Profile
Limey153
Member



Joined: 2005/8/3
Posts: 114
Berkshire, England

 Re:

I listened to a very compelling message by David Wilkerson today which I would encourage folk to listen to.

It is available to order or download (for free) from openhisword.com and the sermon is called 'The Last Revival'

[url=http://www.openhisword.com/David_Wilkerson.html]The Last Revival[/url]

In this sermon our brother David Wilkerson explains how he believes that God will provide us with a great revival before his return. However... he explains how he also believes that this revival will be preceeded by great economic turmoil.
I for one am already being hit by economic problems, my wife and I are not well off in comparison to western standards and any rise in costs will I'm sure be hard on us. Nevertheless the Lord is our provider not the economy and since I (and many others) have been praying earnestly for revival, if revival must indeed be preceeded by economic instability as brother Wilkerson here states then God be praised indeed!!! For is this the answer to prayer that we have we waiting for all this time?
As dear David states in many of his sermons, when these things occur it is not doom and gloom but a time of rejoicing because with each passing event in the world today we draw closer to our great Redeemer's return :-D
In the light of all eternity I'm sure that this time of turmoil however hard it becomes will seem a mere fraction of a second when compared with the glory ahead. Certainly wealth and prosperity are keeping many away from the Lord,

Quote:
Rev 3:17
Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked



If the Lord deems this economic turmoil nesessary then so be it! Economic stability is not worth as much as a single soul!


_________________
Darren Broadhurst

 2008/9/24 11:01Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

This stipulation is taken from the legislation given to Congress by Secretary Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Benanke...

Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

................................

The ground work is being prepared for the time where one man will say this to the world...and the world because of fear will in unison tell the anti christ....save us....

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/9/24 12:19Profile





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