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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : losing your salvation?

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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

another verse to consider, since it is Jesus Him self who says this, it is worthy to meditate on long and hard, what stands out to me is these words "in Me"

Joh 15:2 Every branch [b]in me[/b] that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

taketh away....

where? out of Christ?

are we still saved if we be removed out from Christ? it is obvious they where in Christ, He says they where. Is it possible to be in Christ and yet be unsaved? a false convert in Christ?

and in verse 6 we have this word [b]if[/b]...

to me it is clear, if means a choice, if means it is possible to be in or out.

fearful ? yes...

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

if we dont abide in Him, we will be in the fire.

And from have been in Christ in the earlier verse, to later be found in the fire.

isent it clear?

i to agree, God will finish what he started, but he never forces anyone, no one will be in heaven who dident wanna go there, and no one will be surprised that they are in heaven.

I am not saying or teaching salvation through works, but it is evident i think, in my own opinion. The Lord speaks very clear on this here.

what say ye?


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/9/20 17:37Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


 2008/9/20 17:44Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

I would like to say their is nothing wrong with posting anything from someone who is well known in the issue or has a better understanding than me. I also have commented on the issue so i am bringing not just other peoples words but mine too.
Like i said i recommend some sermons from paris reidhead called overcoming the world and abiding in christ. This man explains it very well, it is your decision to see what he says, he uses the scriptures too so you can't say that the Bible has authority over men. He uses the Bible to prove what he is saying. I would like to also say that it would be great if we had the likes of Charles spurgeon, Andrew Murray, John wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Ray comfort, Paul Washer, JOhn Macarthur, Paris Reidhead, Leonard Ravenhill, and Jesus Christ to explain to you all how your all totally wrong on the issue. You guys would gain a lot of knowledge if you looked into these men and if you had the holy spirit to listen to him about the issue. Or did you lose your salvation today. You know what if you could lose your salvation, if you read the verses the way you guys want to, you could never get your salvation back and would be lost forever. I read hebrews ch. 6 totally different than people who think you can lose your salvation, but say you guys our right then their would be no possibility for you to come back.

 2008/9/20 17:53Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

Paris reidhead actually answers that verse that you bring up in abiding in christ, check it out. I don't want my unscholarly words to unconvince you guys.

 2008/9/20 17:55Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
Paris reidhead actually answers that verse that you bring up in abiding in christ, check it out. I don't want my unscholarly words to unconvince you guys.



I have heard it brother, its a good sermon. I dont see Paris emphasizes on the doctrine once saved always saved as much as you seem to do.

Also your list of preachers, are you saying they ALL hold this view? because they have some very different belifs theologically.... some even hold the very opposite view on some things. I meen Paul Washer and Ravenhill dont exactly preach the same doctrines, Edwards and Wesley dont either.

God cut of israel, his chosen people. They where grafted out, and Paul warns us.

and yes, some take it to the extreme, saved one day and next not ect.

I am not preaching that, but i see in scripture it is possible, take Solomon, Davids son, he built the temple, wrote four books of scripture, and are probably in Hell. Scripture never mentions he repented.

Can God keep us? yes and amen, he can, he can keep us from even falling. But we must live in repentance and an overcoming life. and trust Him and believe in Him. that He is our only hope.

those who overcome....


so the question still remains, is it possible to one day believe so, and the next dont?

I think yes, as we see in scripture it is possible.

But it is also possible to be saved to the uttermost.

so we need to consider all scripture


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/9/20 18:07Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:
I would like to also say that it would be great if we had the likes of Charles spurgeon, Andrew Murray, John wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Ray comfort, Paul Washer, JOhn Macarthur, Paris Reidhead, Leonard Ravenhill, and Jesus Christ to explain to you all how your all totally wrong on the issue.



Bro(?),

Are you saying that John Wesley believed in eternal security? I'm fairly sure that Ray Comfort doesn't believe in it either, but I just asked on his School of Biblical Evangelism forum to be sure.

EDIT: I just found the answer to my own question. No, Ray Comfort doesn't believe in "Once Save, Always Saved".


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Jordan

 2008/9/20 19:57Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
another verse to consider, since it is Jesus Him self who says this, it is worthy to meditate on long and hard, what stands out to me is these words "in Me"

Joh 15:2 Every branch [b]in me[/b] that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

taketh away....

where? out of Christ?

are we still saved if we be removed out from Christ? it is obvious they where in Christ, He says they where. Is it possible to be in Christ and yet be unsaved? a false convert in Christ?

and in verse 6 we have this word [b]if[/b]...

to me it is clear, if means a choice, if means it is possible to be in or out.

fearful ? yes...

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

if we dont abide in Him, we will be in the fire.

And from have been in Christ in the earlier verse, to later be found in the fire.

isent it clear?

i to agree, God will finish what he started, but he never forces anyone, no one will be in heaven who dident wanna go there, and no one will be surprised that they are in heaven.

I am not saying or teaching salvation through works, but it is evident i think, in my own opinion. The Lord speaks very clear on this here.

what say ye?



Good post! Would you call someone a branch that wasn't a Christian? And why would you be taken away when you were never part of the vine?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/9/20 20:08Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

No ray comfort does believe once saved always saved. I have 8 of his cds and i have his movie hells best kept secret and have read his book way of the master. His main teaching is that their is a true convert that continues to perservere to the end and their is a false convert that falls away after professing for some time. That is the biggest lie i have ever heard, his whole teaching is based on true conversion. You guys need to find out the truth about stuff like that, email his website living waters.
Better yet watch the video on true and false conversion by way of the master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rncnhmzfpwo part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z24R_YYP6z8 part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCxwnldGZPA part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlNxYX8pSbc part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOptjcInfTY part 5

You need to tell that man or woman to get their facts right.

 2008/9/20 21:52Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

I had my pastor Mark reply to this and this is what he said:

Jesus said he is the vine and you are a branch. When you are grafted in, which means when the seed (JESUS CHRIST) comes into a truly cultivated heart, (the parable of the seed sower) It bears fruit and it never looses the seed. The other three seeds are never there for full time and full term because most so called christians are never truly saved because the will not surrender to God's will and his word. They become religious and then fall into all them scriptures you are discussing. God's word says he will not be mocked and you will never be put to shame. He will not let someone that is truly saved ever fall into sin and stay there and then cut them off.

ASK THEM THIS, IF YOU TRULY HAVE AN EARTHLY FATHER AND DOES IT EVER COME A TIME EVEN IF THE FATHER DIES, OR HE MOVES TO AFRICA AND YOU NEVER SEE HIM, DOES THAT MEAN HE IS NOT YOUR FATHER NO MORE? iT AGAIN ALL GOES TO THE PARABLE OF THE SEED SOWER. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE REPENTANT HEART?

I never have the discussion when any one ever tries to say that because it shows me thew have not sought out the bible and and the Holy Spirit has never given them the true revelation. There is another scripture that no man can pluck you out of his hand.

Listen, ask them this one question. When you truly with a repentant heart accept Jesus as your Saviour, you don't desire to turn back and go and sin again because when you truly taste the goodness and the gifts of God, there is never a desire to go back. Tell them to read the parable of the seed sower and Jesus told his disciples when you understand this one you will understand them all.

All the scriptures you are saying if they will read and seek the understanding is all falling under the parable of the seed sower.

 2008/9/20 21:53Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

this is on ray comforts website

"I was once a born-again Christian. Now I believe it’s all rubbish!"

When a person maintains that he was once a Christian, but came to his senses, he is saying that he once knew the Lord (see John 17:3). Ask him, "Did you know the Lord?" He will then be forced to say, "I thought I did!" This gives you license to gently say, "If you don’t know so, then you probably didn’t." If he didn’t know the Lord, he was therefore never a Christian (1 John 5:11–13,20).

Explain to him that the Bible speaks of false conversion, in which a "stony ground" hearer receives the Word with joy and gladness. Then, in a time of tribulation, temptation, and persecution, falls away. If he is open to reason, take him through the Ten Commandments, into the message of the cross, and the necessity of repentance and faith in the Savior.

 2008/9/20 22:15Profile





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