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bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re: paul washers wifes testimony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0M_4rKlR3k part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFLKkTpDQFI part 2

 2008/9/27 0:02Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Did we have a choice in our natural birth?

If we are aborted before does not mean there was not life there.

On both accounts we have no choice and yet we live.

The Same with being born again. It is not our choice, it is the choice of The Parent.

Can you loose you natural birth? The only way I can see you loosing it is by suicide, but the life of the soul is still functioning, it will be judged.

The same for the soul/mind of man, depending on which spirit it is under. The spirit of our father the devil or the Spirit of our Father, Jesus Christ Spirit and the Holy Spirit all live in the believer. Sealed by the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and His Father making their abode with us.

We cannot choose to loose what is not our to loose. Just like we cannot choose to loose the life we had no choice in.

"The Life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God". "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who live in me."

How can you loose it, it is not yours, it is God's in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip



Your analogy falls short...


_________________
Jordan

 2008/9/27 11:24Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

explain where CHRISTINYOU analogy falls short. Please explain why we can answer all of the verses that you put on here with losing salvation, but you guys don't admit to taking them out of context. Not meaning to seem rude, but many of those verses you take out of context.

 2008/9/27 11:49Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:
True christians do not take away from the book of life



Bible1985,

What in the world do the verses in Rev. 22, Hebrews, and John 15 and 16:1, mean to you then?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/9/27 11:50Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

I have answered the book of hebrews many times pertainings to chapter 6 verses 1-9 and hebrews ch. 26.
I have put 3 defenses from christians who have done a detailed discussion on almost all of this, look at them, those answers they give our probably going to be as good as they get. If you don't agree, show where you don't agree and i will answer them.

 2008/9/27 11:53Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
revelation ch. 22

Why would a true christian take the words out of this book, they wouldn't because it would be an offense to even think about doing that having God's spirit abiding in you. The only ones who take away our the ones who have the spirit of the antichrist or who not children of God.

 2008/9/27 11:57Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

john 16:1
1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
I do not see anything their with the controversy that we our studying, did you have a mistype.

 2008/9/27 11:59Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

Lets take at at something jesus quotes from john 15

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


Right their it is saying that he ordained and chosen the disciples that their fruit would remain.

 2008/9/27 12:04Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

John 15:2,6

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit… If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

I’ve heard some preachers say this Scripture refers to premature death; however, I know plenty of believers who don’t go soulwinning, and don’t seem to care, and are living selfish lives. They should all be dead if that’s what John 15:2 and 6 mean; but they’re not. Clearly, the Scriptures mean something different, otherwise Christians would be nearly extinct.

Notice that John 15:6 says “as a branch“. Jesus was likening a fruitless believers to a fruitless tree. Most believer’s today are unproductive. Jesus told the parable of the seeds in Luke 8:5-15. There is no mention of premature death for believers who fail to go soulwinning. Jesus spoke of selfish believers who are choked by the cares and riches of this life (Luke 8:14), and never win anybody to Christ. Others are immature, having no roots, and are easily discouraged and quit. 1st Corinthians 3:15 teaches that some believers will receive nothing at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 2008/9/27 12:06Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

Eighteen Biblical Examples Of People Who Once Had Saving Faith.

by Dan Corner

.




It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king; for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. 1Sa 15:11


All reference sources are listed at the end of the article. Copyright by Daniel D. Corner. However, for the sake of truth and eternal souls, you have our permission to copy this article for free distribution but NOT TO SELL.

In disbelief to a conditional security, the author of a tract wrote: Show me one man in the Scriptures who was saved and then lost. (1) The following section will cite eighteen Scriptural examples of such—two from the Old Testament and sixteen from the New Testament.

Saul

Out of all of Israel, God himself chose Saul to be the leader over his inheritance (1 Sam. 10:1 cf. 9:16,17). Since we learn later that God rejected David’s oldest brother (Eliab) to be king because of a wrong heart condition (1 Sam. 16:6,7 cf. 17:28), aren’t we safe to say God must have chosen Saul to be king on the basis of a proper heart condition? It is also inconceivable that God would have his prophet anoint an unsaved man to be king over his people!

Scripture declares that Saul, in his early days, had the Spirit of God come upon him in power (1 Sam. 10:10). Later, however, God said of the same man:

I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments (1 Sam. 15:11, NKJV).

Saul turned back from following God. Doesn’t this clearly indicate that Saul was with God before that point? Soon after Saul stopped following the Lord, we read:

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him (1 Sam. 16:14, NKJV).

After this we read of Saul’s spiritual decline. His jealousy of David (1 Sam. 18:7-9) led to other sins, including multiple murder attempts on David’s life (and even on the life of Jonathan, Saul’s own son). See 1 Sam. 18:11; 19:10; 20:33.

Saul also unjustly ordered the murder of 85 men who wore the linen ephod and put to the sword Nob, the town of the priests with its men, women, children and infants (1 Sam. 22:18,19). The Bible declares that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John. 3:15, NKJV).

In spite of all of this, some still think Saul was saved at the very end of his life since Samuel, who died in a saved condition, told him:

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me . . . (1 Sam. 28:19, NKJV). 2

Two points need to be noted in conjunction with that verse. First, to quote 1 Sam. 28:19 is to start too late in the passage. We should begin the quote at verse 16:

Then Samuel said: “Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines” (NKJV).

At that point in time, God had become Saul’s enemy. According to Hebrews 10:27, raging fire will consume the enemies of God. Saul only had one day left to live, yet he still never repented! In fact, he took his own life (1 Sam. 31:4). So from the point of 1 Sam. 15:11 to the very end of his life, Saul never turned back to God. It is, therefore, impossible that he could have escaped fiery torment beyond the grave, since he died an enemy of God.

Secondly, many people fail to understand that back in the prophet Samuel’s day, both the righteous and wicked people went to Hades (or Sheol)! This is graphically shown in Lk. 16:19-31. There we see righteous Abraham and Lazarus were in a place of contentment and separated by an impassable gulf from the rich, Jewish person who died in his sins in need of repentance. That same unrepentant man was in fiery torment. In light of this, righteous Samuel could say that wicked Saul will be with me, meaning he would be dead and in Hades. But according to other Scriptural evidence, he would be in fire on the opposite side of the gulf from where the prophet Samuel was.

Saul is clearly an example of a person who once followed God (1 Sam. 15:11), but afterwards turned away to the point where he became God’s enemy (1 Sam. 28:16) and committed self-murder (1 Sam. 31:4,5).

In other words, Scripture states Saul totally and finally fell away from the faith, in spite of how this contradicts the Westminster Confession and certain once saved always saved [OSAS] teachers!


Solomon

Solomon is an example of a person who walked with God for decades. However, in his latter years, he turned from God and never came back!

So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the LORD had commanded (1 Ki. 11:9,10, NKJV).

This same man had a most unusual beginning with the Lord. God gave him incredible wisdom to govern Israel and beyond that both riches and honor (1 Ki. 3:12,13). He also had the unique privilege of building the Temple. When he finished his prayer of dedicating the Temple fire came down out of heaven:

When Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. And the priests could not enter the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the Lord’s house (2 Chron. 7:1,2, NKJV).

Solomon actually saw God twice (1 Ki. 11:9), and was used to write part of the Bible.

However, after this man walked faithfully with God for decades, as he grew old “his wives turned his heart after other gods” (1 Ki. 11:4, NIV).

Imagine that! True worship and sacrifice was offered to God at the Temple that Solomon built, yet this same man was adversely influenced to go after pagan gods because of his pagan wives. (Single people, remember Solomon and take warning! Marry only in the Lord. See also Neh. 13:26.)

Solomon’s heart turned away from God to idolatry! There is not one scintilla of Scriptural proof to say that he ever came back to God in the book of Ecclesiastes or anywhere else in the Bible. None! If the OSAS people think there is, then let them supply a specific chapter and verse which clearly says so. The burden of proof is on them to show that Solomon returned to God, but it is impossible to prove this.

Prior to Solomon’s heart turning away from God, we read:

He is the one who will build a house for my Name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever (1 Chron. 22:10, NIV).

Those words were spoken by a prophet of God to David about Solomon. Hence, at one point, God was Solomon’s spiritual father and Solomon was God’s son. Yet, in spite of this he was warned that if he forsook God, God would reject him forever:

If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever (1 Chron. 28:9, NIV).

Unfortunately, the Scriptural record shows that this warning against apostasy didn’t prevent it from happening. Because Solomon forsook God, God was faithful to his warning and likewise rejected him forever! Solomon’s past faithfulness and services to the LORD, as God’s son, had no bearing whatsoever on what God would do to him if he forsook God. Neither would the fact of God loving him (2 Sam. 12:24,25; Neh. 13:26) prevent this. In other words, there is no seniority with the LORD or security for any saint who would forsake God for idolatry.

OSAS defenders write of Solomon:

Over the fate of Solomon there rests such a cloud and silence that many good men conclude he was lost: on the other hand there are those who do not believe that he so fell as to lose the favor of God and perish eternally. [5]

But the very last details of Solomon’s life are much clearer than some would like to think. Regretfully, Solomon never repented, for he tried to thwart the will of God by attempting to murder Jeroboam, God’s choice to rule over the ten tribes he was going to tear from his hand (1 Ki. 11:31). Consequently, Jeroboam fled to Egypt from Jerusalem until Solomon’s death.

Solomon therefore sought to kill Jeroboam. But Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt, to Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon (1 Ki. 11:40, NKJV).

If Solomon would have repented after this attempt Jeroboam would have been safe to return, but he wasn’t safe as long as Solomon was alive and Jeroboam knew it! Since Solomon died in such a spiritual state and the Apostle John wrote that no murderer has eternal life (1 John. 3:15), then we can only conclude Solomon died in a lost spiritual condition. In Rev. 21:8 God also states where the unrepentant idolaters and murderers will go—to the lake of fire.

There is, therefore, no cloud and silence over Solomon’s fate, as some say, except for those who refuse to accept the obvious evidence of Scripture in favor of some manmade confession or doctrine. Moreover, to say Solomon did not fall as to lose the favor of God and perish eternally is to say one can be an unrepentant idolater (and murderous) and not go to the lake of fire, which is clearly antithetical to what God says (Rev. 21:8).

This information about Solomon, who totally and finally fell away from the faith, also shows that certain verses from the Old Testament that allegedly show the believer is [unconditionally] preserved by the Lord have been misinterpreted. Usually, Psalm 37:24,28 are cited for such. 6 Robert Morey is another OSAS defender who makes the same kind of misinterpretation from the Old Testament. [7] If those Scriptures really teach we are unconditionally preserved by the Lord, why didn’t it work for Solomon? Man’s free will and human responsibilities after his salvation must have a role in him being preserved by the Lord, as Solomon’s example shows; if man’s free will didn’t then Solomon would have remained faithful, since God doesn’t want any to perish and he never fails!

Solomon’s life (as well as Saul’s) also disproves a different concept held by OSAS teachers (moderate form) such as what is taught by Kennedy:

That person may fall into sin occasionally, but he will not live in that sin (italics his). 8

After he turned away from God, Solomon, just like Saul, did continue to live in sin till the end of his natural life. Therefore, dogmatic assertions to the contrary must be rejected: No one can point to someone who was indisputably a true believer who permanently apostatized. 9


Those Who Believe For A While

Jesus communicated the secrets of the kingdom to the saved through parables (Mt. 13:11-15; Lk. 8:9,10). Several of these parables are very destructive to OSAS, especially the one called the Parable of the Sower which is found in all three of the synoptic gospels (Mt. 13:3-9 cf. 13:18-23; Mk. 4:3-8 cf. 4:14-20 and Lk. 8:5-8 cf. 8:11-15). This parable is one of the only two for which the Lord actually gives an interpretation. (The other parable the Lord interpreted is the Parable of the Weeds.)

In the Parable of the Sower, the Lord spoke of four types of people who hear the word of God. Of those four types:

Type A never gets saved—the seed never produced a plant.

Type B is the one we’ll focus in upon in detail, those on the rock.

Type C is the person who hears the word of God, but his fruitfulness for God is choked out by thorns—the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth.

Only Type D person has a heart likened unto good soil that produces a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

In reference to the Type B person mentioned in the Parable of the Sower, Jesus said in Lk. 8:13:

Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away (NIV).

Why did Jesus say they have no root? What did Jesus mean by fall away? What is the time of testing? What does believe for a while mean?

Let’s answer these questions in reverse order. First, to believe for a while must mean the person who heard the word of God (also called the message about the kingdom, Mt. 13:19) truly and genuinely had saving faith. We must conclude this since life was produced in this type of person from the word of God through their personal faith, unlike Type A who never believed and consequently never got saved. Referring to Type A, Jesus said:

Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved (Lk. 8:12, NIV).

The word of God (seed) never produced life in the form of a plant for Type A because that person never believed. If that person would have believed he would have been saved. But this is not the case for Type B person.

Type B person hears the word and receives it with joy (Mt. 13:20). Also, there can be no legitimate doubt over this type of person believing or not, for Jesus clearly stated that this type of person did believe, unlike Type A. He said that they believe for a while. [10] Please note, the Lord used the same Greek word (pisteuo) in Lk. 8:13 for believe that he used in verse 12 which was lacking for salvation in Type A person!

Furthermore, in regard to Type B person, he lasts only a short time (Mt. 13:21). So, again, there was true, spiritual life in that type of person, but it didn’t continue, according to Jesus. This is Jesus’ interpretation of the parable. Therefore, it is not open for another possible interpretation! So, the man did have personal faith which produced spiritual life for a time period. If such a person would die physically while he was still believing and before he falls away, he would enter the kingdom of God.

What is the time of testing? The answer can be found in Mt. 13:21:

When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away (NIV).

In other words, trouble and persecution for godly living caused Type B person to stop believing, which consequently terminated his spiritual life. This is shown by the plant drying up and dying. It’s not that the person never believed to begin with, but trouble and persecution because of the word adversely affected this type of person to not continue to believe and stay alive. So then, trouble and persecution because of true faith will always come to those who believe. Paul concurs:

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Tim. 3:12, KJV).

Dear reader, if you are a real Christian, persecution will come to you as a test. According to Lk. 8:13, persecution for godly living is your time of testing. Such might come in the mild form of mockery or being excluded by others (Lk. 6:22,23). But when it comes, regardless the form, don’t let it destroy you spiritually like it has destroyed many.

What does it mean to fall away? If we compare Lk. 8:6 to 8:13, we will notice that Jesus said the plants withered when they fell away. In other words, it was when the plants withered (or died) that the people fell away. We can’t die unless we first had life! Therefore, one must first be saved before he can fall away, according to Jesus’ teaching.

Also, the same Greek word translated withered in Lk. 8:6 is used in John. 15:6 which is what happens to branches that are severed from the Vine. Jesus gave us both of these passages and used this word in the same sense in these two places to mean die spiritually, which he termed fall away in Luke. Again, this occurs when a person stops believing. So it is clearly possible to have complete loss of faith, though OSAS denies this:

Further, complete loss of faith is only a theory. Given the stated purposes of God in the life of the believer, we do not think it a genuine possibility. 11

Finally, in Mk. 4:17 and John. 16:1, Jesus used the word skandalizo, which the NIV translates go astray. The latter reference was clearly directed to those already saved:

All this I have told you so that you will not go astray (John. 16:1, NIV).

So what we read of Type B person in the Parable of the Sower at Mk. 4:17 is what Jesus later taught could possibly happen to true Christians, namely his disciples!

This is a clear and powerful refutation by the Lord Jesus himself to what was written by John Calvin, who denied a Christian can fall away:

Moreover, it cannot be doubted, that since Christ prays for all the elect, he asks the same thing for them as he asked for Peter—viz. that their faith fail not (Luke xxii. 32). Hence we infer, that there is no danger of their falling away. . . . 12

What did Jesus mean by they have no root? (The NASB says, “no firm root,” italics theirs.) To understand what the Lord meant by this, we must observe that there was a real plant that sprang up. After a time period, that same plant died. In other words, the plant didn’t endure. This is likened to the type of believer that doesn’t continue with the Lord after his regeneration. This is what the Lord meant by they have no root.

OSAS proponents usually refer to Mt. 13:20 to the total exclusion of Lk. 8:13 and try to force out an interpretation consistent with their doctrine for those on the rock, that is, they say this type of person only had a spurious or temporary faith that was never genuine.

It’s critical to know that a temporary faith to OSAS proponents means one that never produced regeneration. As already proven, spiritual life did exist for a time in such people. Hence, such passed from death to life, then again back to death as shown by the seed producing life which later died at the point of unbelief.

There is no way to know how many people that we have personally observed in our generation who got truly saved, then fell away right before our own eyes, according to Jesus’ teaching. Of course, to protect OSAS, this is flatly denied with a simple, “they were never really saved to begin with.” While it’s true that some never get saved, like Type A in the parable, or those mentioned in Mt. 7:21-23,Type B person does get saved, but doesn’t continue to believe (stay alive spiritually). Therefore, this kind of OSAS answer can’t apply here.

It seems that Paul had godly concern in mind over what had happened to Type B person when he wrote:

We sent Timothy, who is our brother and God’s fellow worker in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we were destined for them. In fact, when we were with you, we kept telling you that we would be persecuted. And it turned out that way, as you well know. For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless (1 Thess. 3:2-5, NIV).

By the way, to be Type D person (the one with a good heart that produces a crop from the word of God), you will have to:

(1) endure trouble and persecution for godly living; and

(2) not allow life’s worries, riches, pleasures and desires for other things to choke out its fruitfulness (Mk. 4:19; Lk. 8:14).

Lk. 8:15 is most clear in describing Type D person:

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop (NIV).

The word persevering implies adversity. Paul was an example of this type of person. He faced much adversity (2 Cor. 6:4-10; 11:23-27; etc.), but still remained faithful to God.

Demas

Demas was a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul (Col. 4:14; Philemon 24). Together they worked, enduring various troubles and persecution, to extend the kingdom of God. This speaks highly of Demas at that point in time, for Paul was very selective and careful with whom he labored for the Lord. This is apparent since he rejected John (also called Mark) for his past unfaithfulness (Acts 15:37-41).

However, in Paul’s last letter before his own martyrdom, he informed Timothy of the following change in Demas:

For Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica (2 Tim. 4:10, NIV).

The Wuest expanded translation reads:

Demas let me down, having set a high value upon this present age and thus has come to love it.

This translation clearly states that at the time of Demas’ departure from Paul:

(1) He loved this world which caused him to desert Paul. [The Greek shows what Demas came to love is that of which Satan is god (2 Cor. 4:4)!]

(2) He didn’t love the world like this earlier in his Christian life. In other words, his heart condition was different at the time of Paul’s last letter. Apparently, Demas did not guard his heart (Prov. 4:23). Somehow he got deceived which naturally affected his behavior.

Remembering all this about Demas, let Scripture speak to you more extensively about him:

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 John. 2:15, NIV).

The seriousness of not loving the Father is evident from Jam. 1:12; 2:5 and John. 5:42. In other words, this reflects that one is not saved when he doesn’t love the Father. Demas degenerated to this state. Eph. 2:1,2 goes on to say:

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient (NIV).

The word translated ways (aion) is the same word found in 2 Tim. 4:10, which is also what Demas came to love. The word translated world (kosmos) is the same word found in 1 John. 2:15!

Jam. 4:4 supplements all this by adding:

You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NIV).

James was, in part, writing to a group of spiritual adulterers. (Compare this to Jer. 3:20 and Ezek. 6:9.) Notice how James declares that one can become an enemy of God [again].

Other translations similarly say:

Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NRSV).

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (NASB).

One is either saved or unsaved; with Jesus or against him; a child of God or an enemy of God. Now, for one to become an enemy of God must imply he was, just before that spiritual condition, a child of God. There is no other spiritual condition in which to be. Jam. 4:4, therefore, means such go from enemy of God to child of God to enemy of God again! Heb. 10:27 adds to this by saying:

... raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (NIV).

So if one becomes an enemy of God from his former spiritual condition of being saved, then he can’t be saved any more and raging fire is awaiting him, unless he repents.

James cites in condensed form what happened to Demas, that is, a Christian can come to love the world and show himself no longer saved. Also, this is the answer for those who say, based on the Old Testament, that “Christ is married to the backslider,” but fail to say:

I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries (Jeremiah 3:8, NIV).


The Prodigal Son

The Prodigal Son also clearly refutes both strands of OSAS. In Lk. 15:11-32, we learn that the younger of two sons desired to depart from the Father’s presence and be with the prostitutes. After he spent all his money and was in great distress, he came to his senses (v. 17). He then turned from his sins (repented), was willing to admit that he had sinned and went back into the presence of the Father to work for (or serve) him. This resulted in a feast of celebration. The Father said:

Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found (vv. 23,24, NIV).

From Jesus’ teaching we learn:

(1) A true son of the Father can become spiritually dead and lost because of sinning.

(2) No man plucked the Prodigal out of the Father’s hand, but the Father let him walk away to his own spiritual harm, even to the place where he became lost.

(3) The Father did not strike the Prodigal dead physically before he became spirituallylost.

(4) The Prodigal was sealed until the day of redemption, like other children of God, but he still died and became spiritually lost because of wild living and sexual immorality.

(5) The Father’s love for his son didn’t prevent him from becoming spiritually dead and lost through sin.

(6) The Father always remained faithful, but sin still put God’s son to death.

(7) The Father didn’t leave or forsake him, but he left and forsook the Father. The Father let him go.

(8) After he repented, he became alive again, which implies his spiritual condition went as follows: spiritually alive—then spiritually dead or lost—then spiritually alive again.

The important point the Father was emphasizing in verses 24 and 32 was the complete reversal of the Prodigal’s spiritual condition, now that he repented. He went from dead to alive again, which is equated in the same sentence as going from lost to found. Hence, there is great reason to rejoice over such a sinner that repents, as already mentioned two separate times in this same chapter.

It also shows he got saved again through repentance after he became lost. Similarly, Rom. 11:23 says:

And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again (NIV).

In contrast to these Scriptures, OSAS unscripturally teaches:

Nowhere does Scripture speak of a person being saved twice. [13]

The Prodigal was spiritually alive when he was in the presence of the Father, both before and after his wild living (v. 13). When in wild living, he was spiritually dead and lost in his sins.

Perhaps the words alive again are most revealing. The Greek word anazao from which alive again comes is found five times in the New Testament—in these two verses just cited, Romans 7:9; 14:9 and Rev. 20:5. It means live again, or revive. 14

This is easily seen in Rom. 14:9, “. . . Christ died and returned to life. . . .” Here it is stated that the Lord’s physical condition went from life to death [on the cross] tolife again [when he arose from the grave].

Similarly, the Prodigal’s spiritual condition went from life to death [when with the prostitutes] to life again [when he returned to the Father’s presence].

Many in our hour teach and sincerely believe that the most one could ever lose through sin after initial salvation is their joy of salvation, fellowship with the Father, spiritual rewards, position in the kingdom, etc. Jesus, however, taught otherwise! The Lord taught the Prodigal’s alive spiritual condition degenerated to dead, the same as for everyone before initial salvation (Eph. 2:1).

What happened to the Prodigal is the reverse of what happens at the point of initial salvation (John. 5:24). Jesus taught there that we pass from death to life, but the Lord also taught we can pass from life to death (Lk. 15:24,32)!

Paul likewise informed Christians, after their initial salvation:

If you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live (Rom. 8:13, NIV).

This is what happened to the Prodigal. He died spiritually because he chose, through his own free will, to live according to the sinful nature.

Luke 15:13 states wild living characterized his behavior when spiritually dead and lost in his unconfessed and unrepented sins. The word for wild living (asotos) comes from the Greek word meaning excess, as found in Eph. 5:18:

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit (KJV).

So the Prodigal’s behavior, as implied by Lk. 15:13, included drunkenness and other excesses that go with that kind of sinful lifestyle. This would be a safe assumption anyway, especially since he spent his money with prostitutes (Lk. 15:30). Therefore, among other grievous sins, the Prodigal’s sins were sexual immorality and probably drunkenness also—two rampant spiritual killers in our day too! Paul wrote about these and other similar sins in Gal. 5:19-21 and 1 Cor. 6:9,10. This former passage, written to Christians in warning form, reads:

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God (NIV).

Notice, unlike what some of the OSAS teachers say, based on a faulty interpretation of Col. 2:13, the Prodigal’s future sins were not automatically forgiven, because if they were, it would have been impossible for them to bring about his dead and lost spiritual condition!

Others say of the Prodigal, “He was still a son when with the prostitutes.” But such seem to forget a spiritual son of God can’t be spiritually dead and lost, as the Prodigal was at that point. If the Prodigal would have died at that point in time, he would have gone to eternal fire!

Somehow, when Hal Lindsey was commenting on the Prodigal, he misquoted Lk. 15:24,32 into something other than what the Lord taught, which also happens to be consistent with OSAS:

And the fact that the father says of his son that he was “dead and is now alive, was lost and is now found” shows that a very radical change had taken place in the relationship of these two.

The change that had taken place is called “reconciliation.” 15

Lindsey omitted the word again from Lk. 15:24 and inserted the word now! In the beginning of his book, he states “Unless otherwise designated, Scripture quotations are from the New American Standard Bible.” When one checks Lk. 15:24 in the NASB, this is what he reads:

For this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found. And they began to be merry.

Please note the difference between Lindsey’s quote and what the NASB actually says. By removing the word again and inserting the word now the fact is concealed that the Prodigal was spiritually alive before he became spiritually dead and lost through sin.

Sin can bring forth spiritual death, according to Jesus’ teaching! See also Mk. 9:43-48 where Jesus taught that personal sin can always be the cause of going to eternal and unquenchable fire.

There is no seniority with God. It’s your final spiritual condition that counts! You must endure until the end of your life to enter the kingdom of God. You must continue to believe on Jesus Christ or be lost.

In review, the Prodigal Son (Lk. 15:11-32) demonstratively shows the full extent of sin’s destructive power in the life of a son of God, the key roles that free will and human responsibility play, the limited protective power offered by the believer’s seal, etc. All of these were taught by Christ himself.


Judas Iscariot

Judas Iscariot was, at one time, both an apostle (Mt. 10:2) and a disciple of Christ (Mt. 10:1). Jesus, however, inferred that he ended up in the torments of eternal fire with the words:

. . . But woe to the man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born (Mk. 14:21, NIV).

[Obviously, this can’t be implying Paradise as mentioned in Lk. 23:43 and 2 Cor. 12:4.] Those truths about the Apostle Judas have caused great trouble for the OSAS adherents, for it is a clear refutation of their doctrine by the Lord himself!

Some try to escape the force of these combined verses by saying one can be a disciple of Christ, like Judas, yet never be a real follower of Christ: Judas was a disciple, but never a true believer. [16]

However, the following verses show the opposite about the meaning of disciple:

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple (Lk. 14:26,27, NIV).

. . . Any of you who does notgive up everything he has cannot be my disciple (Lk. 14:33, NIV).

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother (Mt. 12:49,50, KJV).

Judas Iscariot met all these conditions of commitment to Christ, just as much as the rest of the Twelve, since he too was the same kind of disciple as they were.

Others will say Judas was called a devil 17 (John. 6:70), a thief (John. 12:6), and Satan entered into him (John. 13:27), how then could he have been saved? Such people overlook the truth that one’s spiritual condition can change from righteous to evil, as we clearly saw with Saul, Solomon and the Prodigal Son. Yes, Judas was once saved, though he wasn’t clean shortly before the betrayal (John. 13:10,11). This, however, does not mean he was never saved! Remember, Judas was clearly the Lord’s disciple in the beginning as already shown.

Some have also confused the truth stated in John. 6:64 to mean Judas never believed, even from the beginning. However, it doesn’t say this at all. The verse reads:

Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them [plural] did not believe and who [singular] would betray him (NIV).

There are two groups referred to here. This is evident in the Greek. One is plural in tense that didn’t believe from the beginning and the other is singular in tense referring to Judas who would betray him! The Wuest translation renders John. 6:64 as follows:

But there are certain of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who were not believing, and who the one was who was betraying Him.

Another argument offered to say Judas was never saved is, he was called the son of perdition (John. 17:12, KJV). If this is true, then we should say the Apostle Peter was not saved either for Jesus called him, Satan (Mt. 16:23)!

Matthias was the apostolic replacement for Judas, as we read:

To take the place in this ministry and receive the position of an apostle from which Judas fell away and went astray to go (where he belonged), to his own (proper) place (Acts 1:25, Amplified Bible).

Notice, the Apostle Judas went astray from his former condition.

In Matthew 10, we have a number of directives given by the Lord to the entire Twelve, including Judas. Verse 25 implies Jesus was Judas’ head and Judas was a member of Jesus’ household! Verse 29 also declares God to be the spiritual Father of Judas, at that point in time. To receive Judas, before he went astray—when he was still a disciple, was the same as receiving Jesus, verse 40. When Judas would be arrested for preaching God’s word, he wasn’t to worry about what to say or how he was to answer for the Spirit of the Father would speak through him, verse 20. Also, Judas was a servant of God and Jesus was his Master, verse 24.

If Judas was never saved then Jesus sent an unsaved man along with the rest of the Twelve, to preach his gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse leprosy and drive out demons (Mt. 10:7,8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons. Would Jesus give an unsaved man the same type of spiritual authority along with the unquestionably saved apostles, to likewise be his holy representative?Never! For a person to say that Judas was never saved is to say, unwittingly, that Jesus chose a child of the devil to be his holy representative, which is borderline blasphemy.

Also, please note the high spiritual qualifications listed in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and Titus 1:7-9 which a spiritual leader, like Judas, had to meet! In fact, Judas held the highest office in the New Testament church as apostle (1 Cor. 12:28). For Jesus to elevate him to such a high office as apostle would be a violation of Scripture, if he was never saved.

The OSAS teachers almost never use his exalted church office of apostle with Judas. Can you remember the last time you heard an OSAS teacher refer to the Lord’s betrayer as “the Apostle Judas Iscariot who became a traitor” or even “the Apostle Judas”?

Judas was once a saved man who preached the Gospel, healed the sick, then went astray and ended up in eternal fire, after he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide.

In John. 17:12 we read:

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled (NIV).

Also, John. 17:12 is similar to someone saying the following: “Here are the twelve marbles you gave me. None has been lost except the one green marble.” Would that statement mean that he never had twelve marbles to begin with? Or, could it mean that the green marble (likened unto Judas) was never in his possession, even at the beginning? Of course not! Why do some read Scripture that way? If Judas was never saved, he couldn’t be the exception to the other eleven, who were kept safe and didn’t become lost like he did.

Finally, please notice the obvious conclusion to which we must come by comparing John. 17:2 to John. 17:12. Jesus gave eternal life to all the Father gave him, verse 2. Clearly, Judas is included in this group of recipients, as verse 12 shows. Therefore, Judas once had eternal life like the rest of the Twelve! In spite of this, he was doomed to destruction after his death. There was no OSAS for the Apostle Judas.

Logically, for OSAS to be proven false, it would only take one example of a person in Scripture who ever received spiritual life through salvation then later lost it or a Scriptural teaching which would declare the possibility of such occurring. Consequently, the OSAS proponents are left with no alternative but to dogmatically insist that Judas was never really saved to begin with or forfeit their belief in OSAS—something which few of them seem to be willing to do.

Sometimes, blatantly unscriptural things are said about this apostle:

Judas is a prime example of a professing believer who fell into absolute apostasy. For three years he followed the Lord with the other disciples. He appeared to be one of them. Presumably he thought of himself as a believer, at least at the outset. It is doubtful that he joined Christ’s band with the intention of turning against Him. Somewhere along the line he became greedy, but that could hardly have been his motive in the beginning; Jesus and the disciples never had anything of material value (Matthew 8:20). Apparently Judas initially shared the hope of Christ’s kingdom, and he likely believed that Jesus was the Messiah. After all, he also had left everything to follow the Lord. In modern terminology, he had “accepted” Jesus. 18

As you can see, MacArthur states that Judas joined Christ’s band, as though the apostolic band already existed before he came on the scene! In contrast, the Biblical account states the following about the Twelve, including Judas, aquiring the office of apostle:

When morning came, he calledhis disciples to him and chose twelve of them whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor (Lk. 6:13-16).

The first time we hear of Judas Iscariot, we are informed that he already was the Lord’s disciple. Furthermore, he was called and chosen by Christ himself to be an apostle at the same time as the other Twelve. See also John. 6:70. Judas did not join Christ’s band which already existed, for he was already part of that group!

Yet, while the others were growing into apostles, Judas was quietly becoming a vile, calculating tool of Satan. Whatever his character seemed to be at the beginning, his faith was not real (John 13:10-11). He was unregenerate, and his heart gradually hardened so that he became the treacherous man who sold the Savior for a fistful of coins. In the end, he was so prepared to do Satan’s bidding that the devil himself possessed Judas (John 13:27). 19

MacArthur also erroneously has the Twelve, that is, minus Judas Iscariot, growing into apostles instead of instantly being made apostles by Christ himself! Judas too was of this group chosen over the other disciples of the Lord who were present when he chose only Twelve to be his apostles. This fact about instant apostleship is also shown elsewhere in Scripture and confirmed by the origin of Paul’s apostleship (Rom. 1:1). One never grows into an apostle, as MacArthur teaches!

Judas became a traitor (Lk. 6:16, NIV). The word became for Judas suggests a change for the worse that occurred sometime after he was chosen as a disciple by Christ to be his apostle, or special messenger. In other words, Judas went from disciple of Christ to apostle of Christ to traitor. Or we might say he was once a disciple of the Lord’s elevated to apostle, who later became a traitor, as Scripture words it.

Either way, the spiritual condition of the Apostle Judas Iscariot regressed to the place where he betrayed Christ for thirty pieces of silver, committed suicide (self-murder) and then went to destruction. What an awesome thing to contemplate!

Moreover, Jesus quotes from Psalm 41 and attributes it to Judas in John. 13:18b. That full verse from Psalm 41 is:

Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me (v. 9, NIV).

Judas was once Jesus’ close friend whom he trusted! Since Jesus knew what was in a man (John. 2:25), that is, in his heart, how then could Jesus trust Judas in the early days of their companionship if Judas was never saved? Also, Ps. 41:9 states that Judas was Jesus’ close friend at that same time. Could that be possible if he was never saved?

MacArthur also made the statement, his faith was not real in reference to Judas based on John. 13:10,11 where we read:

He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you. For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean” (NASB).

MacArthur reads into those verses as he wears his OSAS glasses and sees that Judas was not clean in contrast to the other disciples. But does this say that Judas was never clean? It merely says, at that point in time, Judas wasn’t clean then. Remember, he was a disciple in the beginning, chosen to be an apostle, so he must have been clean at the beginning. Hence, MacArthur tries to make John. 13:10,11 say that Judas didn’t have real faith, without a solid Scriptural basis for saying such!

A final point needs to be made—a hypothetical one. Let’s say the OSAS proponent is right that Judas was never saved at any point. That in itself would not prove that OSAS was true. It would only prove Judas couldn’t be cited as evidence against OSAS! It only takes a single Scriptural example of a person ever saved who later became lost again to disprove OSAS, be it Judas, Saul, Solomon, the Prodigal or anyone else. OSAS would likewise be disproven if Scripture would in some way state the possibility of such occurring. So Judas’ example really isn’t needed to disprove OSAS.


Simon

Simon, who once practiced sorcery in a city in Samaria (Acts 8:5-9), was influenced spiritually by Philip, the evangelist, but later needed to repent because his heart wasn’t right. But was he ever saved? Yes, according to verse 13!

And Simon himself also believed, and being baptized was continuing steadfastly with Philip. And seeing miracles and works of power happening, he was amazed (Green’s).

There we learn that Simon himself also believed. The verse does not say seemingly believed. This should settle the question once and for all! He believed like the others in that city who believed and were baptized, verse 12.

Simon received Christian baptism, just as the Ethiopian eunuch was qualified for baptism after he too believed (Acts 8:34-39). Remember, one can believe for a while and quickly fall away through persecution (Lk. 8:13). Though persecution isn’t even implied in Simon’s short walk with the Lord, he still likewise believed, then needed to repent of sin afterwards (v. 23).

The KJV renders Acts 8:18-23 as:

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

For one to be in the bond of iniquity shows that he is a slave to sin thereby showing he is under the control of the sinful nature. This means he is not saved (Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21,24; 6:8-10).

Peter also said his heart was not right in God’s sight at that point. He and his money would perish (apoleia) together unless he would repent of his wickedness. All of this together shows his spiritual condition after he believed (v. 13).


Hymenaeus And Philetus

Hymenaeus and Philetus were first-century apostate teachers, who were spreading a spiritually poisonous message.

Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17,18, NIV).

Notice, they wandered away from the truth. One can’t wander away from the truth unless he is first in the truth, which is a description of Jesus (John. 14:6)!

Though this is the only time we read of Philetus in the entire New Testament, perhaps we have a shade more information about his partner, Hymenaeus. In 1 Tim. 1:19,20, Hymenaeus (if the same person) is mentioned as a person who shipwrecked his faith. This is cited as a warning to Timothy to hold on to the faith and a good conscience which Hymenaeus (and Alexander) didn’t do. This shows that they were once saved, just as much as Timothy was, when he got this word of caution from Paul. In other words, the same disastrous thing that happened to Hymenaeus and Alexander could potentially happen to Timothy in spite of the seal of the Holy Ghost and God’s keeping power! There is free will and human responsibility (holding to faith and a good conscience) that would guard Timothy from this type of spiritual disaster, according to true grace teaching.


Unnamed Christians Destroyed By False Teaching

Continuing on with 2 Tim. 2:17,18, Hymenaeus and Philetus were destroying the faith of unnamed Christian people that Paul knew of by their teaching about the resurrection! The ones adversely affected by their teaching were clearly Christians, for their faith was destroyed! Certain false doctrines, if believed, can do this to real Christians. Sin, therefore, is not the only way to negate one’s salvation.


Many Unnamed Disciples

Many unnamed disciples of John. 6:66 stopped following Jesus and therefore went to eternal fire. That verse is clear and needs no additional comments:

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him (NIV).

Remember Lk. 14:27,33 and Mt. 12:49,50 when understanding their prior commitment to Jesus.

The OSAS position that a backslider will always come back to the Lord is obviously refuted by John. 6:66. Furthermore, King Saul, Solomon and Judas Iscariot all turned away and clearly never came back to the Lord! With this in mind, how do we answer the OSAS argument from Mt. 18:12-14 that none of Christ’s sheep who wander off will perish in the end? Verse 13 reads:

And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about the one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off (NIV).

This verse qualifies the OSAS position by stating: If he finds it. Therefore, the possibility of not being brought back exists and is conditional upon us being found! Finally, if we interpret Scripture with Scripture, this is the only conclusion to which we can logically come, especially with John. 6:66 in mind.


Some Younger Christian Widows

Some younger Christian widows turned from Jesus and started to follow Satan!

So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan (1 Tim. 5:14,15, NIV).

We cannot turn away to follow Satan unless we were first following someone else! Since there is only one other possibility, they must have been following Jesus before they turned to start to follow Satan. Verse 11 verifies this:

. . . when their sensual desires overcame their dedication to Christ . . . (NIV).

Clearly, it is stated that they did have a real dedication to Christ at first, which came to an end. Then they started to follow Satan. True Christians must not allow their sinful nature to take control, which occurred with those women. Rom. 8:5,6 is especially enlightening as to how this can occur:

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace (NIV).

There are only two types of people in the world. Paul describes both of them here and declared why they live the way they do. Notice the importance of our thought life as to how we live. Please compare this to Col. 3:1,2.

In contrast to Paul and his understanding of grace, many OSAS proponents if present then, would have been forced to comment that those widows were never really saved to begin! This reflects how different the times are from then to now.

Some Christians Eager For Money

Some Christians eager for money have wandered from the Christian faith. Paul wrote:

But if we have food and clothing, we will be


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/9/27 16:33Profile





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