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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : losing your salvation?

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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi bible1985...

But what if such a union is shaken by a bride who leaves her Groom and returns to sleep with the world?

Wouldn't such unfaithfulness indicate a break of that union?


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Christopher

 2008/9/25 2:28Profile
learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Quote:

learn wrote:
b)Also, if you say they were both saved, then if a Christian died in his sins (eg: adultery, stealing $, the grossest sins), then there's also a possibility that he is saved based solely on the view that Ananias and his wife were saved




Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
Yes they were saved even if they committed a gross sin.



Ok, so you said that this person who has died in gross sins is saved. Appreciate the answer although I think many that hold on to eternal security would disagree or at least refuse to say yay/nay with you on that.


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geraldine

 2008/9/25 3:17Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Did we have a choice in our natural birth?

If we are aborted before does not mean there was not life there.

On both accounts we have no choice and yet we live.

The Same with being born again. It is not our choice, it is the choice of The Parent.

Can you loose you natural birth? The only way I can see you loosing it is by suicide, but the life of the soul is still functioning, it will be judged.

The same for the soul/mind of man, depending on which spirit it is under. The spirit of our father the devil or the Spirit of our Father, Jesus Christ Spirit and the Holy Spirit all live in the believer. Sealed by the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and His Father making their abode with us.

We cannot choose to loose what is not our to loose. Just like we cannot choose to loose the life we had no choice in.

"The Life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God". "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who live in me."

How can you loose it, it is not yours, it is God's in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/9/25 7:36Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Scriture Teaches:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part [b]out of the book of life[/b], AND out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

There is only one way to have your name in the Book of life, and to have God "take away his part OUT of the book of life" has only one meaning.

 2008/9/25 11:32Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
I agree with the article that i posted, we lose communion with christ but not union because that union is sealed unto the day of redemption, don't grieve the holy spirit during your time here on earth.



The union is within commUNION-if you lose communion(totally), you have lost union.

To those of us who are married, if we were to stop communioning as husband & wife, do you still think the union of husband & wife would be there?

 2008/9/25 11:36Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

True christians do not take away from the book of life, you our all talking as if a christian is some deceptive person and decideds to leave the faith while the holy spirit is abiding in him, their is a difference between turning your head to or resisting the holy spirit when it draws you but when it has its abode in you its purpose to clean out your sinfulness and it will continue to do that until its gets out almost all of your sins. The holy spirit is suppose to conform us into the image of his son on a daily basis. If you our disobeying the Lord and not repenting the Lord will chastize you and break you down until you come weeping back to God. You our not going to be saying holy spirit leave me, i want nothing to do with you and its going to leave. The holy spirit will go against our will to make our wills to conform to gods will, that is what the holy spirit is their for. Because you sin the holy spirit is not going to leave but convict, if their is no response to the conviction, chastize, if not give your flesh over to satan until you repent for good. An example would be Job, satan was having almost all of Job but his life. Job didn't have the holy spirit like us but you can see that the Lord can allow us to be attacked by satan in the flesh and also in our lives so we can repent, Jobs was different but still satan had everything but his life. You see you think the holy spirit stays on our say so and you think that we our still our old creation never submitting to god, that is why the holy spirit is their because god knows you cannot perserve on your own and you would turn from in the end. The holy spirit is what makes you overcome the world, if you have the holy spirit your a new creation not still your old creation which will want to leave the lord, that is almost blaspheme, your taking the power of the Lord that is suppose to be in you and making it unto some weak thing that depends on you to continue on and not him. Your faith is sealed once you surrender and the holy spirit comes to be in you, that means you will have saving faith so you will not even want to leave and your faith will not change. Its Gods faith that he gives you and not of yourselves. Our faith would not perservere and you all should know that, we couldn't perservere and we not want anything to do with the lord at all. What the Lord has changed is changed for good. All those people who fall away from their faith were never saved and they proved it by falling away. What is walking away, is it sinning no, is it falling into a gross sin no, but it is to denounce the christ you said you believed, proving the person you said you knew, you never did. Like Jesus own words you worker of iniquity , i never knew you. Not i knew you once but now i don't, but i never knew you. Oh and these our people who professed to be christians and supposedly walked with the Lord but they never truly repented and gave their life completely to jesus.

 2008/9/25 11:59Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

"True christians do not take away from the book of life..."

I'm sorry bible1985, but the words of Jesus, are the words of Jesus. In Rev 22:19 Jesus did not speak of people who were not saved, or who were phonies.... he spoke of people whose names were in the book of life-and the only people whose name is in the book are Christians.

Jesus emphatically stated that during the end times " the love of MANY would wax cold"-that speaks of Christians as well in their love waxing cold towards God and towards man (brethren).

The fact is, they are christians, and Jesus makes it plain that the love of a Christian can "wax cold"-not they themselves, but their "LOVE would wax cold"-meaning a heart that once was on fire, walking with and serving the Lord, can grow cold if not properly and fervently " keeping themselves in the love of God".

We are told to keep ourselves in the love of God for that very reason-because if you don't , it is indeed very possibly for your love for the Father wax cold-thus, a cold heart.

The apostle Paul spoke of himself as possibly becoming reprobate-that says alot all on it's own.

Paul spoke of "making shipwreck of the faith" " denying the faith" " erroring from the faith" and to Christians, examine yourself and see if ye be "in the faith"....

The implication of Rev 22:19 are clear-that his person's name was in the book, in order for it to be " taken away from the book AND FROM THE HOLY CITY" (the Holy City is the New Jerusalem-in which ONLY Christians dwell)

 2008/9/25 12:40Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

How can one loose his birth, "the witness is in himself", I believe that I exist, because I do exist.

The same is for being born again, God must give birth and rebirth, the seed of Life. One natural birth as an earthly person. One spiritual birth, which is heavenly birth. You have no choice in either, you can only believe.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

You may walk away from your earthly parents, but you are still their son. The same goes with God as our parent, you may walk away from Him, but but you are still His son.

If any would come to God and ask for salvation, and it be given then one could turn away and give it up.

But none come to God no not one. Salvation is of God, when it is given, it is not to be repented of. No man can make God a liar, and change his birthright, a son and heir with Christ of whom we Call, "Our Father".

In Christ? Christ in you? Who places us there?
How can you loose it?

Only the son of perdition, to fulfill the scriptures.

In Christ? YES
In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/9/25 16:10Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

But none come to God no not one. Salvation is of God, when it is given, it is not to be repented of.

Great reply christ in you. I really am at a stand still with this discussion because no one really agrees and seems everybody is dead set on their belief at least most. I will still be reading everyones quotes and enjoy it, but this really isn't going anywhere, christian brothers and sisters. Their is a division in this between many of us. For me the main thing i want to point out is for anyone who is unsure if their saved make sure you our truly in the faith and if your unsure then your probably not or satan is messing with your mind. But as the Bible says you should have the witness within you that you our saved, if you don't and you want Jesus. Truly surrender your life to him and fully repent and believe that he has saved you of your sins and he will save you. God bless everyone and i appreciate all the great answers and replies that i have heard personally on both issues, but i would like to get on other subjects.

 2008/9/26 2:18Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Just 1 person's thoughts

Parable of the sower

Luke 8:8
Still other seeds fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.

Luke 8:15
But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop


The different types of soil have been used to describe the different type of people and only the last soil (ie good soil) will be successful.

However, I think it may have another meaning also. All the soils except the last soil was not the Holy Spirit. The last soil ie the good soil is the Holy Spirit--and that's why its successful. That means the Holy Spirit is the one that 'carries us' and prevent us from completely straying away forever or completely rejecting God forever.

Without the Holy Spirit, we will fail. Don't forget, we are not only fighting this world but also the devils who are loads cleverer than us. That's why God has to hold us and never let us go/reject Him once He has accepted us as our children (ie we being the elect)if we are to be His. Some may have doubts as to whether God will just never let us go (ie we don't have a choice to reject Him) just because at one point in time we asked God to come into our lives. But don't forget, God sees everything--past, present and future. Thus, while we do not know what we will do in the future, God already knows all this when He came into our lives. So the point of can God refuse to let us go or can we reject Him later on just because of that 1 particular point in life we turned to God is moot as God is not restricted by what we know/can see which is the present (and not the future).

I've known that eternal security verses are stronger than the asking us to persevere verses--I was once an OSAS believer and went through all the shenanigans of comparing eternal security and salvation can be lost. Guess am going back to OSAS (or I prefer OSKS--Once saved kept saved) as I just cannot see us succeeding (which may include falling away for goodness knows how long although its not easy to think that it be many years as I can't bear to imagine of the grief the Holy Spirit has to suffer) without the Holy Spirit in us all the time.


Also, I've always felt that the bible verses does not have only 1-2 meanings/intention but more. I'll give one now. God started with Israel first and no matter how stubborn Israel is or how much they rejected God, God will still save Israel in the end. Although Israel is a large group of people (and not everyone called an Israilean is saved), the 'part of Israel that is saved/going to be saved' can also be likened to 1 person. That means, no matter how much the person may want to misbehave and seek the temptations of the world or avoid trials, the Holy Spirit will not let him do this forever and ultimately bring him back to the fold (maybe/maybe not death could be an option???) This of course, is not in the bible, its just my way of thinking.

Also, I've always favoured the view that 'God is working in us' instead of 'we working for our salvation' in Phillipians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I have not really focused on the verses on asking us to persevere in this thread as I've done them in the past and can create some type of 'excuse' at least in my own mind. Plus, I've never denied the verses supporting OSKS is stronger than the former.

Maybe am wrong but have to admit that am rather tired to keep pondering this in my head and for the moment am willing to go back to OSKS.

If all else fails, hey have incorporated Paris Reidhead's sermon on 1 point (I have talked with people that have no assurance that sins are forgiven. They want to feel safe, before they're willing to commit themselves to Christ.)

ie : Am willing to serve God without having to feel saved first. Hopefully this will not need to happen. And if this fails to, then onwards to Hebrews 11 :-P

Okay, end of rambling and back to others quoting scriptures. (AKA the commercial is over and back to the main show)

:-P :-P


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geraldine

 2008/9/26 12:24Profile





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