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clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

logic, you do not use logic when you exclude scriptures that refer to the subject that is being spoken of in particular passages . the bible is very subjective in the way it is written. theories about what certain scriptures are saying , that can go either way, prove nothing. there is much said about the atonement and what it was in scripture that just goes totally opposite of your arguement that "my god my god why have you forsaken me" means jesus spiritually died because god turned his back to jesus. that is not proof of jesus dying spiritually. in isaiah 53:10-12 ..yet it pleased the lord to bruise him ; he hath put him to grief : whe thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin' he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his daysand the pleasure of the lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see the travail of HIS SOUL, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my RIGHTEOUS SERVANT justify many, for He shall bear thier iniquities. therefore will i devide him a portion with the great, and he shall devide spoil with the strong; because HE HATH POURED OUT HIS SOUL unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors ; and he bare the sin of many , and made intercession for the transgressors. now when jesus had God turn his face away from him and he cried out " my god my god why have you forsaken me " that is what is spoken of in isa.53:10 in His soul was an offering for sin . it did not say His Spirit .an offering for sinand in isa.53:12 when it says " because He pour out HIS SOUL unto death" and it did not say His Spirit here either. that is what JESUS WWAS CRYING OUT FROM AND OFFERING when he cried out " myGod my God why have you forsaken me... he was not crying out from His spirit he was not pouring out his spirit when he said that HE commended HIS SPIRIT to the father already . he was crying out and pouring out His Soul unto death . at least according to this passage in isaiah 53 that is what happened.and thre is much more scripture on this that needs to be seen in the right context too.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/5 17:50Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

logic , i am glad that you are here and that you believe in Christ but something to know about the atonemet that really helped me to see a lot of the mistakes is the way that charles finney taught in his systematic theology is that Christ did not suffer everything we would suffer if we did not get born again. the Scriptures nowhere represent the atonement as a commercial transaction. meaning that it was NOT an eye for an eye kind of transaction . yet this is what the false teachers that claim that jesus was on the cross and came to earth only as a man and not man and God. the atonement was only a transaction betweent the Father Son and Holy Spirit. it was ALL about the RIGHTEOUS SERVANTS' sacrifice for the ungodly. it was never about the sinful cursed jesus who died a spiritual death and needed to be born again before we could attain to the same place he had been born again into after he spiritually died . this was real shocking for me to think that hagin and copeland and dollar and hinn and capps and parsley and so many other prominent men can be so beyond what the bible really says,, this is why i am so blessed to have a site that i can discuss and search out the matter as far is i can go because i live in tulsa and have many loved ones i come in contact with that believe most anything hagin and copeland tell them , and are not willing to give into the scriptual view of the atonement. look up what charles finney teaches on what the atonement is, he is one of the best theologians i know of . i am not saying that he is infallible, but he is clear deep and precise on the scriptual view of atonement. this will help to clear up much about what secured our fellowship with the Heavenly Father and just exactly how we can do what He requires of us . remember if a sinner can do it , it is not what God requires .


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/5 18:15Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: did Jesus really die spiritually

I have tried as often as possible to read every forum from the first, but I hope you will pardon me on this if I do not read all 91 previous posts as I am not intending to enter this topic. I am only posting this as I noticed clintstone asked a question from a previous thread, "Geenna and Hades". :-P



I just wanted to make a few points of some things that I have understood from Scripture concerning the three days of Christ's death and burial.


I have heard some say that while the Lord Jesus was buried He was "inactive." That is to say, He was in His grave (I guess we might say "sleeping") and three days later He came out.

But this is a very strange thing to say, and it ought to be.

The argument is: how can we say Jesus went down to the pit and was tortured by demons, etc., when Jesus was Himself without sin, even though He took our sins upon Himself.

Well, the first error that occurs to me when I hear this: when did demons suddenly have authority to torture those in the "underworld"? If we want to talk about Catholic fiction, this would be it. Last I checked the pit was a prison for demonic angels, not their playground or kingdom to torture pitiful souls.

And I am not concerned about what people have "dreamed" or had "visions" of (regardless of being "out of the body" or not)-- it isn't in Scripture, simple as that. Thus, it is enough for me to be satisfied that these people who dreamed or had visions were possibly shaken up to their eternal judgment.


Now, Jesus said He was going to "Paradise" just before he died on the cross. Shall we then assume He was talking about suffering in death as a certain rich man did (Luke 16)? It should also be mentioned that before Christ's resurrection every spirit descended. Scripture says the spirit of Jesus went down to Sheol - did He suffer there or what? We do not know.

To be very honest the Scriptures are not entirely clear on what happened during the three days of Christ's burial. He certainly descended, and that descended spiritually, there are plenty of verses to verify this. And He likewise ascended leading captivity captive.

Ephesians 4
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

As you will recall that when Jesus resurrected on the third day,

Matthew 27
52. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53. "And came out of the graves [b]after his resurrection[/b], and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."


As for Jesus being spiritually "dead" because He took our sins upon Himself, I like what Logic said

Quote:
They (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) never became un-unified in purpose



That is absolutely correct.

So, again, clearly Jesus went down beyond the grave. But if you would like to know more information about this, it will be mostly speculation and if it were honestly of significance the Lord would have explained it to us. This is not a query that will likely ever be understood with the human wisdom considering the nature of this question being not only spiritual but a matter of Deity (not to mention the lack of Scripture).


What truly matters is that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins and rose again on the third day conquering death and the grave: proving Himself the Son of God. He also ascended up on high and sat down upon His Throne as our King and High Priest forever; offering up the blood of His atoning sacrifice through the Holy Spirit unto the Father; whereby the Father sent forth the Holy Spirit in the Name of Christ Jesus according to the promise.


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Jordan

 2008/9/6 1:05Profile
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
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 Re:

thank you for your replies, i will try to answer your questions as well.

Quote:
I know about the weight of sin, but what is the wrath?

What is the wrath of God at the cross? I think Wayne Grudem answers it pretty good."The wrath of God at the cross seems to be what romans 3:25-26 is describing. That in times past God did not simply forgive sins and forget about them, but instead He had forgiven sins and stored up His righteous anger. Then at the cross the fury of all that stored up wrath against sin was unleashed on His own Son".
Quote:
You do know that this is the ONLY time that Jesus called His Father "God"?
Why did He call His Father "God"?
Because, only the estranged call The Father as "God".

not true my friend. He also calls His Father "God" in john 20:17 when He tells Mary not to touch Him "Because He has not ascended to His Father......I ascend to My Father and your Father and to My God and your God"
Quote:
How did God "forsake" Him?

here would be a good time to explain the forsaking at the cross. First we know that this is a reference to the 22nd Psalm which starts out "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"? What does this psalm talk about? feeling forsaken by God and men. being despised, beaten, being outnumbered by the enemy, using up all your strength, etc.. but then look at the psalm from verse 19-31. It is a psalm of praise in who God is and a trust that ultimately God will deliver Him.

So Jesus when saying this was referencing His feeling forsaken by the disciples, family and The Father. He was saying the same thing as the psalm. but the question has to be asked "Was Jesus forsaken all together and did God totally turn His back on Jesus at the cross? Did God totally forsake David in the 22nd psalm? I don't think scripture shows us that. i believe that it shows us how desperate, alone and forsaken they felt, but they knew that although they felt forsaken, they were not and would utimately be delivered..

i hope that kinda answers some of your questions.. i gotta go, but i wanted to try to write you and answer some of your questions..

thanks for your graciousness..
phil

 2008/9/6 11:04Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

hello boG , thank you for the post. i mentioned the first thread as a question because i am not al knowing . but i do know what the scripture says , and also what Jesus himself said, of his work and the culmination of that in His death and ressurection. Yet the more that i keep ,adding line upon line here a little and there a little,of understanding who Jesus Christ is and the atonement, the more that i see many following this group that says they have all the answers of what really happened to this jesus that became a sinful man and died spiritually... all sin is voluntary not one partical of sin is constitutional. the outcome of sin is physical but not the sin itself. i do believe there is abottom to this issue from scripture and i am learning and searching it all the way through. i believe i will find the way to exsplain ,from scripture, all there is to know of this ,so that those who follow those that adhere to this false doctrine can know for certain the truth . so i am looking for more info on this topic that what i already have. i have yet to post all that i know from scriptures and the original language. i do know that those who claim Jesus died spiritually and physically have misinterpreted 2cor5:21 and isa.53 to come up with this nonscence


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/6 14:45Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

Love Him, you have a good spirit , i am glad to know that you care for truth . thank you for your input . Clint


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/6 14:55Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3705
Ca.

 Re:

Logic wrote:

"""I don't know what your talking about with this "superhuman Spirit" & human pneuma(spirit)"""


Because we have a spirit, soul, and body.

The spirit and soul are connected with the body, but when the body dies the soul and spirit are present with the Lord, when we are His.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This "superhuman" is a reference from;
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. pneuma
Search for G4151 in KJVSL
pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.

See Greek 4154
See Greek 5590

Spirit, pneuma, of Christ (superhuman) Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The spirit-soul of Christ is what died on the Cross. The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot be in separation, so it was not the Spirit of Christ that dies on the Cross, but his human spirit-soul. The Spirit of Christ that is in us will never die either, that is why the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the By the Faith of the Son of God, which is His Spirit that is in me, which will never die, My human soul-spirit which is now One with the Spirit of Christ, which is the fulness of the God-head bodily.

Colossians 2:8-16 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

"Superhuman," came directly from Strong's Greek Concordance.

Can you separate the spirit, soul and body in your mind? God does: Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What sword is coming out of the mouth of Jesus?
The Word Himself.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Same sword as Heb 4; romjaia rhomphaia hrom-fah'-yah.


Soul; Strong's Greek Dictionary
5590. psuche
Search for G5590 in KJVSL
yuch psuche psoo-khay'
from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Spirit; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. pneuma
Search for G4151 in KJVSL
pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/9/6 17:53Profile
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: did Jesus really die spiritually

Well clintstone, after I wrote that last post, I went to bed and lay awake quite a few more hours in prayer.

This is one of the fruits of that time with the Lord. I pray it directs your path in truth.

As I noted Logic wrote previously,

Quote:
They (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) never became un-unified in purpose



So, if I may, I would like to expound on that point.


What is sin? It is obedience to unrighteousness (that which is contrary to the Spirit of Life).

[b]Romans 6[/b]
16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
...
22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Was Jesus a slave to sin?
[b]Never.[/b]

Was Jesus a slave (servant) to the Father?
[b]Always.[/b]


Thus, this raises a peculiarity of "spiritual" proportions.


[b]1 Peter 2[/b]
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree ...


[b]2 Corinthians 5[/b]
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


[b]Philippians 2[/b]
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, [b]and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross[/b].


Now Christ was made to be sin for us, though He Himself was without sin. However, even in this "sin" Christ was perfectly "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" according to the will of the Father.

So we have Jesus made to be sin and yet perfectly obedient unto righteousness "resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life," by doing so.


In this way it is very straight-forward to understand how death could not hold Him nor the grave keep Him. But as to the "dynamics" of how Jesus could become sin through righteousness?

I know the OT sacrifices are parables of Christ's sacrifice; they give us some practical understanding, yet these parables are "speaking in human terms because of the weakness of [our] flesh."

So we may reason the atonement through all the different OT offerings, of particular note would be [b]Leviticus 16, concerning the two goats and the bullock[/b].


Now, if I were to put in my two-cents, here is what I would say:

1) Jesus' spirit: did not die. How could His eternal Spirit be seperated from the Father for perfect obedience?

2) Jesus' soul: I don't know, you tell me. As far as my mind can grasp, there is no such knowledge or wisdom given to reveal such a revelation (it is unprecedented). However, personally I would put the "made to be sin" part here: in the soul.

But how shall we say it is so: like oil and water, like fire and water, or righteousness and unrighteousness equally mixed together into one substance? It is all speculation.

3) Jesus' body: died indeed, yet did not suffer corruption (decay).


As much as I despise hearing anyone tell me, "well, it is a mystery" (when it isn't! :-P ). This is one of those things I will gladly let be what it is: the Mystery of the Love of God.

(Congratulations, you've taken me as far out of Scriptural certainty as you will likely ever see me go! :-) )


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Jordan

 2008/9/6 20:52Profile
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
1) Jesus' spirit: did not die. How could His eternal Spirit be seperated from the Father for perfect obedience?

Well said brother. That is the main point i was trying to make. I do not see in scripture where Jesus and the Father were seperated. Jesus said of His Father "I am in Him and He is in Me". That is the aspect of the trinity that is more than a unified purpose. It is a [b]deep abiding in one another[/b] that we cannot even fathom.

phil

 2008/9/6 22:41Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3705
Ca.

 Re:

If you take a spotless lamb, which has nothing to do with the sin it is being slain for the sins of the people. The Lamb does not know why he is being slain. The Lamb of God did know why He was being slain, especially in drinking the Cup in the garden with the sin of the whole world into His Body, which was a special body prepared for Him, the only body strong enough to have all the sin of the world in his body, that is the cup he ask to be taken away, but He drank it, "Yet not my will but your".

The body of Christ was the perfect atonement, for it was sinless, just like the spotless lamb slain before the altar, that animals blood being a temporary sacrifice every year for the sin of the children of Israel. The Blood of Jesus being Human and all God, the Blood which was Devine God's Seed put in Mary to bring forth the blood of Christ which was in the Fathers Seed, no spot, wrinkle or inkling of any sin in His body, "The life of the flesh is in the Blood", "there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood", the only sacrifice God could accept for the sin of the whole world, Once for all time, The only perfect blood sacrifice was in the flesh body of Christ, never to be hung on the Cross again.

The God Spirit and divinity of Christ could never die, but the soul-spirit, flesh and blood body could and did for the sin of the whole world.

In Christ: Phillip






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Phillip

 2008/9/7 4:37Profile





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